Episode #9: Playing the “Nice Black Girl”
Every Black woman knows what it means to play the “Nice Black Girl” in the workplace. Just like every Black woman knows what it means to be labeled the “Angry Black Woman”.
Between these two labels, Black women have to make hard choices about how they engage, disagree, and work with their colleagues and clients, while maintaining their professional integrity and sense of identity and well-being.
In this episode of Mistakes That Made Me, I interview ethnic and gender pay gaps consultant Michelle Gyimah about how she navigated client relationships as a Black woman who was trying to avoid being stereotyped as the “Angry Black Woman”. Michelle shares the mistake this led her to make, and what you can learn from it.
Listen to the Episode
Show notes
Links from this episode:
Michelle Gyimah on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michellegyimah
Michelle’s website Equality Pays: https://www.equalitypays.co/
Michelle’s podcast Better Money Conversations: https://pod.link/1601188183
If you loved this episode, take a screenshot, post it on Instagram and tell everyone you know that this is the podcast to listen to. Don’t forget to tag me! @emancopyco.
And if you’re interested in working with me, visit emancopyco.com/contact.
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[00:00:00] Eman Ismail: Michelle. Thank you so much for joining me. I have to introduce you as one of my biz besties cause I just need everyone to know that Michelle is one of my biz besties and, um, we've known each other for a good while now.
[00:00:16] Eman Ismail: We met, uh, live, oh gosh, lemme say that again. We met live, that's what my life is coming to
[00:00:23] Michelle Gyimah: Sorry.
[00:00:24] Eman Ismail: known each other, we've known each other for a good while now. A, a number of years, actually five years, maybe four, five years. Yeah, we met in person. That was the first time we ever met. We've been really good friends ever since.
[00:00:40] Eman Ismail: I just came out to Valencia, uh, a couple months ago to speak at a conference, an email conference, and you live in Valencia. And so it was a perfect opportunity for us to meet up. And I, it was so nice to see you.
[00:00:53] Michelle Gyimah: It was so good, wasn't it? It feels like so long ago.
[00:00:56] Eman Ismail: it feels like so long ago. And it was the highlight, one of the highlights of my 2022 and like when, so I was speaking at this conference and when I wasn't at the conference meeting people and networking, which by the way you came to as well, I was like, Michelle, come, come network, come meet people.
[00:01:15] Eman Ismail: Michelle, you had nothing to do with the conference. Was like, okay. And we were just together for the whole four days. And, and then when I wasn't in the conference, we were at the beach and we were at restaurants and it was, it was just so nice.
[00:01:26] Michelle Gyimah: it was really nice. It was,
[00:01:29] Eman Ismail: When I think about you, I think about the fact that running a business can be so lonely.
[00:01:35] Eman Ismail: Being a business owner can be so lonely, but it doesn't have to be. It doesn't have to be you. You've gotta put in the effort to make relationships like this, right? It makes all the difference.
[00:01:45] Michelle Gyimah: It does make all the difference. And, and, and, but, you know, but even like putting in that effort, like even that requires work. So even though sometimes you might be like, oh, I feel lonely, as even I have to remind myself that there is something I can do about that. Like I have a network of people and it's up to.
[00:02:03] Michelle Gyimah: To to do something about it, rather than sitting there thinking, I dunno what to do next. I dunno what my next step is. And I'm like, okay, Michelle, get out of your head. Send somebody a WhatsApp, send somebody an email. , get on a Zoom. Sort yourself out by talking to other people.
[00:02:20] Eman Ismail: Exactly. And we try to have monthly zooms or like WhatsApp, um, video calls where we just catch up and we just, you know, talk about life and business and, and yeah. I just feel like my business, social life and my real social life, my, like, you know, real life, social life has just been all the better for, for knowing you.
[00:02:40] Eman Ismail: So I'm really excited to have you on the show.
[00:02:42] Michelle Gyimah: So excited to be here. Thank you.
[00:02:45] Eman Ismail: Thank you. Okay, so tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do.
[00:02:50] Michelle Gyimah: Yes. So my name is Michelle Jimmer and I am a Pay Gaps consultant, which means I work with organizations to help them understand why they have gender pay gaps and ethnicity pay gaps in their workplaces. So I do that through helping them with their training or, you know, building their strategies around what they're going to do.
[00:03:13] Michelle Gyimah: Um, essentially pay gaps work for me. Uh, the way that I like to pitch it is it's about ensuring that everybody has, you know, equitable chances to build the career the way that they want to. So there's, you know, no discrimination, there's nothing, uh, holding them back in terms of people's perceptions of them.
[00:03:33] Michelle Gyimah: Um, so that, you know, people can thrive in, in, in the way that they want to and that they have, you know, real opportunities and choices in how they build their careers. So, . Yeah. So that's what I do. I help organizations to understand, well, what is it that they're not doing at the moment? Um, and to do more what they need to do more of, and also what is it that they are doing that they need to do less of to ensure that people, you know, have those equal opportunities when it comes to building their career in the way that they want.
[00:04:04] Eman Ismail: amazing. Okay. I'm gonna need you to name Drop because you've worked with some amazing companies. So tell us name, drop some of those c.
[00:04:12] Michelle Gyimah: Oh, do I have to, this
[00:04:14] Eman Ismail: You have to, and, and I went on your website as well, and I was like, I, Michelle, I'm not seeing these logos on this website.
[00:04:21] Michelle Gyimah: that's so funny because it is actually on, uh, my VAs to do this. Like I have said to it, okay, maybe we need to start putting some names in my email signature and maybe like a couple on, on the website as well. But there's a reason for that, and it's not because I'm like being totally bashful, but this work is, is.
[00:04:43] Michelle Gyimah: Even though it's in the public domain, and you know, because we have legislation around it, companies have to report. It's still one of those sensitive subjects. And so some clients are like, yeah, that's totally fine if you say that you've worked with us. And others are like, can we just work together in secret?
[00:05:01] Michelle Gyimah: And, you know, just keep it private. So, so it's always like a fine balance between, you know, which names I drop and who I say them to and stuff. So, yeah. So there is a reason behind why, you know, all that information.
[00:05:17] Eman Ismail: That makes
[00:05:18] Michelle Gyimah: isn't on the website. Yeah.
[00:05:20] Eman Ismail: Okay. So of the ones that you feel comfortable namedropping and that are happy for you to name, drop them, tell us who you've worked
[00:05:27] Michelle Gyimah: Okay. Um, so I've worked with Turley, which is a real estate company I've worked with, um, Barclay's Bank. You, you may or may not have heard of Barclay's Bank. Um, I've
[00:05:40] Eman Ismail: in the UK, you'll know them.
[00:05:41] Michelle Gyimah: Yes. Um, who else I worked with? Uh, I've also worked with Lloyd's Register, which is like a maritime engineering company. Um, I'm trying to think who I'm allowed to say who else is there.
[00:05:55] Michelle Gyimah: Um, I've done some work with Ford as well before. You may have heard of the, the car company, Ford. Um, yeah. So lots of organization. I think they're probably like the biggest ones that, you know, are kind of like brand recognizable.
[00:06:08] Eman Ismail: Mm-hmm. . So you work with corporate companies, right? Like big, big companies. Okay. I'm so, it's so interesting to watch kind of, and listen to your experience as a business owner because I specifically don't work with big corporate companies as an email copywriter, I don't enjoy working with corporate companies usually because there's just so much red tape.
[00:06:29] Eman Ismail: It's just so, it's just a lot. And I just love to speak to, I love to work with businesses where I get to speak to the decision maker. I get to speak to the person who decides whether this project's gonna go ahead or I'm gonna get paid. Like just make the decision and they can pay me same day, you know, same day.
[00:06:44] Eman Ismail: We're getting, we're, we're, this project is booked in, paid for, let's do it. Um, and so it's really interesting watching your experience of firstly, I guess, moving to that point where you felt worthy of working with these big companies. Um, because. , I, I know that you're not allowed to, um, mention some of them, so I won't, but I, I, I have knowledge of like the ones that you didn't have to sign on the n d for anything.
[00:07:13] Eman Ismail: And they are big companies. Um, they are big and it's been amazing to watch you kind of grow into that confidence of, yes, I am worthy of working with these, these amazing companies. Yes, I
[00:07:28] Michelle Gyimah: Well, it's taken me a while, a while to get there. You know, it wasn't like I just woke up one day and decided, you know what I, I'm gonna work with Oxfam. That's another company that I've worked with. I'm gonna work with Oxfam today. , you know, be okay with that. Yeah. It's taken, it's taken a while to get there.
[00:07:44] Michelle Gyimah: But it's interesting what you said about the thing about feeling worthy of one, working with them because I was always at, in the beginning of my business when I started to work with corporates, cuz I haven't always worked with, you know, big organizations. When I started to focus on them, I would have this thing of, okay, I found this person on LinkedIn.
[00:08:03] Michelle Gyimah: I found like the head of hr, head of DNI or learning and development and I'm like,
[00:08:09] Eman Ismail: D N I is diversity and inclusion,
[00:08:11] Michelle Gyimah: Yes. Sorry. Diversity and inclusion. Um, and I can't just send them a connection request, like they're gonna be like, who's this black girl sending me connection requests? And it took me a while to just kind of like get over myself because the reality is, is that, you know, I have to make myself known to people if I want to have a business that's actually.
[00:08:35] Michelle Gyimah: making money as well as, you know, providing a service. I have to do that. And one of the things that I have to remind myself as well is that I'm not working with the entire company. So the company might have thousands of employees, but the reality is I'm gonna be working with a small team, might be like 10 people.
[00:08:55] Michelle Gyimah: Um, and then I might only be talking to two or three people within that small team. And so, you know, the ripple effect of the work that I'm doing does go throughout the organization, but in terms of who I'm working with, it's like a real core number, like single digits. So kind of remembering that and getting into that mindset has, has, has really helped.
[00:09:21] Michelle Gyimah: It's helped to kind of deal with the nerves that I'm not on stage in front of thousands. I'm talking to two or three people. And so that has made it much, much easier for me to feel like. A, I can approach people, but also b, that um, I feel confident in my ability to do my work cuz I'm only working with three, three or four people at a time.
[00:09:42] Michelle Gyimah: And often we're co-creating, like, yes I know my stuff when it comes to pay gaps, but they know their organization. So it's about, you know, finding that balance between the expertise that I can give and provide, but also working with their expertise cuz they know their organization, they know their people.
[00:10:00] Michelle Gyimah: They, they know whether, you know, one of the strategies that I suggest is going to be good for them or bad for them based on what's happening. So for me it's like a real co-creation piece with a select few number of people within a big organisation.
[00:10:16] Eman Ismail: I love that. So you're a consultant who's coming in and your takers, look, I am here to work with you. I'm not coming in to just change everything up and make your life difficult, like I'm here to help. I love that. And I think that's so important. And one of the, I think maybe misconceptions around your work or even not just around your work, maybe about. Around your business, it's potentially that. Look, why are big companies gonna hire someone like you, Michelle, to come in and tell them everything they're doing wrong in terms of their gender pay gap and how they need to start paying people more
[00:10:54] Michelle Gyimah: Yeah.
[00:10:54] Eman Ismail: you ever get that question like, oh, it must be so hard to find clients, like they must not wanna hire you.
[00:10:59] Michelle Gyimah: Oh, wait, listen. I used to say that to myself all the time right at the beginning of my business. Like literally I'd be like, you are just some black girl. Like, why, why are you approaching, you know, McDonald's for example. I never approached them, but let's just say, you know what?
[00:11:15] Michelle Gyimah: They're gonna look at you and be like, why should we talk to you? We can go and talk to, you know, like a, a consultancy where they have, you know, hundreds of consultants on, you know, rotation. And it took me a while to just, to get into that head space of understanding that I bring just as much skills as those bigger organizations.
[00:11:39] Michelle Gyimah: And because it's my business, I have a lot of agility. And then there's, you know, my lived experience, like I have been on the receiving end of the gender pay gap. And then as you can see, I'm, I'm a black woman, so I have lived experience of, you know, what that's like in predominantly white, um, workplaces.
[00:12:00] Michelle Gyimah: And, you know, I've taken time out of the workplace to have. Of, you know, my own babies and then try to enter back in. And that has been, you know, quite a journey. So, as well as the fact that I have, you know, a Master's in Human Rights, and I've worked at the Equality and Human Rights Commission where I did work on the gender pay gap.
[00:12:19] Michelle Gyimah: So it took me a while to kind of piece together, you know, the skillset that I had and to start focusing on why people wouldn't hire me because I'm a business, you know, of, of one, essentially with contractors. And to focus on, okay, well why should they hire me? Like, what can I bring that maybe other organizations can't bring?
[00:12:39] Michelle Gyimah: And so focusing on that has been, it's been really helpful. So, and now it's not even a thought that pops into my head that why would they pick me? And I'm not just , I'm not saying like, I'm like, oh, of course they're going to pick me. But now I don't worry about not being picked. Like if someone decides to go with.
[00:12:59] Michelle Gyimah: Another consultant or they decide to go with a bigger agency, then that's fine because there's plenty of work to go around and I will find the organizations that see the value of what I can bring and they want what I have to bring and so, so yeah. So I'm totally fine with that now, but in the beginning I was like, I can't do this.
[00:13:19] Michelle Gyimah: Why would they pick me?
[00:13:21] Eman Ismail: Yeah. I just need to highlight something you said cause it's absolute gold. So you stopped thinking, why would they hire me? And you start, so you started thinking, why should they hire me? And that's mind blowing to me. And I feel like no matter what industry you're in, no matter the work you do, that you can take that and apply it to your own self.
[00:13:40] Eman Ismail: Not why would they hire me, why should they hire me? Absolutely amazing. And one of the most fascinating things about being your friend Michelle, was when so much was happening, um, in the us um, around Black Lives Matter. This is 20 20, 20 21, your work, because you also do work around the, um, ethnic, um, pay gap as well.
[00:14:06] Eman Ismail: So not just gender pay gap, but also ethnic pay gap. That obviously that work became very, uh, I mean it's always been important, but I guess people started to become aware of just how important that work is. Um, and while you are amazing at that work, the ethnic pay gap was less your passion, like your real, real passion, um, compared to the gender pay gap.
[00:14:30] Eman Ismail: Like the gender pay is where your absolute love is and working with women to help them negotiate better salary, better pay. Um, and so it was really interesting watching you kind of like battle with, okay, I'm really good at this. Like I can do it, but I actually really wanna do this over here, so shall I go?
[00:14:51] Eman Ismail: Whether where there is a lot of money to be made, quite frankly, especially in 20 20, 20 21, or shall I do what I really, really love? How did you decide.
[00:15:03] Michelle Gyimah: Yeah. That was, that was a battle. And, and obviously because it happened during Covid as well, it was very much, I just got into that head space of being very pragmatic in terms of, okay, all of my revenue had died up. Like, like so dried up, I should say, not died up like so many people. And I was very pragmatic in terms of, okay, let's assess what skills I have and then match that to what people need right now.
[00:15:30] Michelle Gyimah: And so, you know, I had worked at the equality of Human Rights Commission for 10 years, so I had, you know, a lot of experience outside of gender work. I, you know, had done like quite a bit of race work as well. Like you said, it wasn't like my favorite as it were, so I didn't do it, but you know how it is, needs must.
[00:15:48] Michelle Gyimah: And so I had that skillset. Um, and so yeah, so I, so I did that work and I did that work with, with another associate. and you know, we did, we did make money, obviously we're delivering service and we got paid for it. And there was a lot of, because it was so visible, there were a lot of opportunities to keep doing that.
[00:16:08] Michelle Gyimah: But like you said, there came a point where I was like, well actually I am not enjoying this as much as if I was doing my gender pay gaps work, which is what I really, really liked. And I wrestled with the guilt of feeling like that this is so important and I, I got into that, what I should continue it on because think of the difference that I can make.
[00:16:33] Michelle Gyimah: Think of, you know, the people on the receiving end who are gonna be in workplaces that are much more equitable and better. And I was very much like, isn't that what I'm all about? Um, and I really, really wrestled with it for quite some time. Still continued to do the work and showing up and do my best, but still, you know, that internal struggle.
[00:16:53] Michelle Gyimah: and I kind of got permission from somebody else because I was in, I think it was a Facebook group. Who was it? Facebook group. Yeah. I was, I was in, I was in a group where um, a black lady was talking to someone else and she said, do you know what? I'm really, really tired. I have done what I needed to do during, I think it was like 20 20, 20 21.
[00:17:17] Michelle Gyimah: And a lot of the work that she was doing was around, you know, social justice and racial equity in the states. And she was like me. That wasn't her bread and butter, but it was something that she could do. She was being asked for that support. So she did it, but she admitted, she said, you know what? I'm tired.
[00:17:32] Michelle Gyimah: It's taking it out of me. And actually I want to go back to my roots of what I was doing beforehand. And she admitted that she stopped doing that work. And I literally like took a breath cuz I was like, that is exactly how I feel. And I was like, If this woman that I don't know, on the other side of the world is allowed to, to press pause on that and move back to what she really likes to do, then I can do the same.
[00:18:02] Michelle Gyimah: And so that's what I did. I, you know, I finished up the commit the engagements I had committed to, but I, I stopped talking about it. I stopped promoting my services in that way, and I went back to my pay gaps work. And also, the thing for me that helped is remembering that, you know, everybody can play their part in different ways in, you know, the social justice work that they do.
[00:18:27] Michelle Gyimah: And for me, my part is focusing on pay gaps. And so it, it's not a case of like, kind of like ditching the direct work around, you know, race conversations. It's about giving that to somebody else who's, who loves it, who's really good at it, who has the head space for it, who's an expert in it. And for me to focus on what I'm an expert on, which is.
[00:18:49] Michelle Gyimah: Which is pay gaps. But yeah, it was, it was a real, like internal tussle. There was a lot of guilt. But I, I came to that conclusion and I felt I was a little bit scared cuz I was a bit like, oh my God, I feel, felt like starting again. And I was like, oh, where's my next client gonna come from? But when they did come, they were the right clients.
[00:19:07] Michelle Gyimah: Cause I was focusing on the right thing for me.
[00:19:11] Eman Ismail: Yeah. And I feel like, oh, there's so much I wanna say. I just, I feel like at that point your business took off, right? Because we were, gosh, do you remember when we were sat in a cafe together and we were planning out our, what is, was it 2020? Just before
[00:19:25] Michelle Gyimah: Just before
[00:19:26] Eman Ismail: were planning our like 2020 goals and our goals financially were both like, right, we are gonna make 5,000 pounds a month.
[00:19:35] Michelle Gyimah: I remember, I remember.
[00:19:38] Eman Ismail: And, and like watching an experience in our businesses grow together has been absolutely amazing. And I think, um, for me, as an outsider, Your success really came when you actually just did the thing that you really wanted to do, um, where you know, where your true passion and true kind of love lay.
[00:19:57] Eman Ismail: And it's really interesting for me because I can totally, um, relate to this idea of feeling like you should do a thing. And I wonder if part of it as well was for you, like, I should do the race work because I am a black woman and that's what I owe my entire people, my entire race. My, it's all on me and my shoulders.
[00:20:19] Eman Ismail: That's a lot of responsibility to carry.
[00:20:22] Michelle Gyimah: it is a lot of responsibility to carry and, and that is ex, that is exactly how I felt. I was like, who are you to say no to this? And also I would tell myself, if I don't do this, then somebody else who feels even less qualified than me might do this work and might actually. Cause more harm because they feel, you know, as guilty, but you know, less prepared.
[00:20:50] Michelle Gyimah: So there was, there was a lot in it. And you know, I think it's, there's learning lessons there. I mean, from a financial perspective. Yeah. It kept our family going during, during Covid, um, which is, you know,
[00:21:03] Eman Ismail: Do what you need to do. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:21:06] Michelle Gyimah: but from
[00:21:07] Eman Ismail: on the projects
[00:21:08] Michelle Gyimah: yeah, exactly. But from a personal and professional, um, kind of perspective, it was, um, it was a lesson for me in terms of being, being true to myself.
[00:21:19] Michelle Gyimah: And because I focus on what I enjoy and what I do best, it makes my work much easier and it makes it enjoyable. I'm not turning up to training sessions or, you know, consultancy sessions with a feeling of dread or am I gonna be found out? That was my biggest thing. I'm going to be found out that I'm not as good at this as people think I am.
[00:21:43] Michelle Gyimah: That was my
[00:21:44] Eman Ismail: Pause, imposter complex
[00:21:48] Michelle Gyimah: Yeah. But I, but I, I feel that it was , it was a genuine thing because I, I didn't feel like I should be doing that work, but I felt like I felt obligated to, and then I came a point where I was like, okay, I've, I've done my peace. I'm, I'm moving on with what I should be doing or what I want to be doing. I should be, say, I should say.
[00:22:11] Eman Ismail: brilliant. Okay. Um, there's, there's so many things I wanna ask you. I mean, I was just thinking about like the emotional and mental toll of the work that you must do. Like there are such high stakes for the women that you're speaking to every single day. Like, it just feels like a lot as someone who entered out of who, who came out of the charity industry, like the charity world to run my own business.
[00:22:35] Eman Ismail: I mean, one of the many reasons I left the charity industry. Wait, let me start that again. Is charity industry a thing? Can I, can I say charity industry? Charity sector. Okay. Thank you. It sounded really weird to me. Okay, let me start that again. someone who came out of the charity sector, um, one of the, one of the many reasons I left was because the, the work had such an emotional toll, um, on me.
[00:22:59] Eman Ismail: And, uh, you know, every day was talking about and writing about people starving and people who dying and, and every single day and reading awful, you know, case studies of people who were really suffering. And it was just too much. It was too much. It was too much for me to do that every day, day in, day out for the rest of my life.
[00:23:17] Eman Ismail: It was too much. Um, so yeah, there's so much more I could say. Uh, but I do wanna move on. I wanna move on to the reason I invited you here. Are you ready?
[00:23:29] Michelle Gyimah: I'm ready.
[00:23:31] Eman Ismail: Okay. Michelle, what is the mistake that made you.
[00:23:39] Michelle Gyimah: Okay, here goes, uh, the mistake that made me is playing the nice black girl,
[00:23:50] Eman Ismail: playing the nice black girl. Wow. Okay. So every black woman who was listened to this podcast just went Yes, yes, yes. And we know exactly what you mean and exactly what you're talking about. But let's, let's go backwards a little bit. Tell me what is going on in this situation that you've got in your mind.
[00:24:14] Eman Ismail: What is going on? What's happening? Tell me, tell me the story.
[00:24:19] Michelle Gyimah: the things. Okay, so this was, oh, let me think. Probably about four years ago, maybe, maybe three years ago, and. Had had my second baby and I decided that I wasn't going back into employment, that I was gonna make a real go of my business, um, because I just couldn't figure out how I was gonna look for a new job with a newborn.
[00:24:43] Michelle Gyimah: And my son was like five years old at the time, and I was just like, Ugh. Right. I'm, I'm all in on my business. So I got very, very visible on LinkedIn. It's my favorite place to hang out and I was starting to kind of, you know, get some traction, like little bits of work here and there. And I decided to join a training agency that, um, to deliver diversity and inclusion training as an associate.
[00:25:07] Michelle Gyimah: And I thought, okay, that's a smart move because they will have clients and all I would need to do is to deliver training. I turn up, I get paid, and it's, you know, a nice foundational, um, money for my business. And I can also, you know, do my own stuff on the side as well. So,
[00:25:25] Eman Ismail: wait, they, they have their own clients that come to them for workshops. They hire you to go do their workshops for their clients in that different places.
[00:25:36] Michelle Gyimah: Yeah. And this was the first, first time I'd done it. And I went along to meet one of the, um, senior associates because they had a client in mind and they had a two day training workshop that they needed somebody to deliver. Um, and so they, they asked me if I would be prepared to do it and I was like, uh, yes.
[00:25:58] Michelle Gyimah: Um, , it was my gonna be my first assignment, two days training. It was quite, quite a big one. I was excited, but I was also also nervous cuz I wanted to make, you know, a good impression. So I went along to meet this senior associate and she had written the training for this, for this company. And so she kind of gave me the background of what it was, and it was like, it was like a leadership training.
[00:26:21] Michelle Gyimah: And I did say to her, I said, well, it's not really my, my forte. But I'll give it a go. And she was like, well, all you have to do is deliver it. It's all been written out. There's notes, there's, you know, slides. It's just a case of, you know, you practicing getting comfortable and delivering it. So I was like, right, okay.
[00:26:38] Michelle Gyimah: So then she says, right, so it's a leadership and it's for the BME cohort in this company, so it's for black and minority ethnic employees in this organization. So I'm like, right, okay. So I'm looking through the, the slides of what she's prepared and I realized, I was like, there's something missing here.
[00:26:59] Michelle Gyimah: This just seems, seems a bit, a bit odd. And so then I realized that the thing that was missing was any mention of anything to do with being black or a minority ethnic person in an organization.
[00:27:15] Eman Ismail: white, right?
[00:27:17] Michelle Gyimah: Yeah.
[00:27:17] Eman Ismail: woman is white. Who's given you, who's written the training and he's lived the training for, okay. Okay, keep going. I just need to clarify.
[00:27:23] Michelle Gyimah: Yes. I was like, oh. And I just thought to me, this is like really, really obvious. And I thought, no, no, maybe I'm missing something. So I'm like, going through these slides is absolutely nothing. So I was like, sat there thinking I've, I've gotta say something like this doesn't make sense. So I said, um, yeah, it all looks really good, I'm just a bit concerned because there's nothing in here about being black or from a minority ethnic background.
[00:27:50] Michelle Gyimah: And do you not think that they're going to be expecting something about that? Notice how I'm like couching it in like really nice, nice terms. Cause I'm trying not to come across like a know-it-all. Try not to come across like I'm saying this is rubbish. Um, and she's like, oh no, no, it's fine. They're not, they know that they're not going to be talking about anything about that.
[00:28:11] Michelle Gyimah: It's just a space for anybody who is black or minority ethnic to do the leadership training together. in their own, in their own group on their own. So I was like, okay. And I sat there thinking, this is just nonsense. And I'm saying the word nonsense cuz this is a PG podcast. I was thinking something else, but for the listeners we'll say nonsense And I was just like, um, I missing something here. Like am I overthinking this because I'm black? Whatever. But I, I pushed it down. I didn't say anything. I just went, okay. And she also, I should have, I should have said something, but she also kept el alluding to the fact that it's really good that I would be delivering this training.
[00:29:05] Eman Ismail: Oh, right.
[00:29:07] Michelle Gyimah: she kept alluding to that. And, but I was torn. I was in this place of the fee that I was getting for this was gonna be the most amount of money I'd ever earned. in won go my business right. And I'm there, you know, with a newborn trying to make it work. But then I was just a bit like, this doesn't seem
[00:29:26] Eman Ismail: is terrible. Okay, wait, I, and I laughed before. I have to explain laughing because I am, so I'm wondering now, and you tell me. No, you tell me. Do you think that there was no mention of being black or minority ethnic, uh, in this training for a black minority ethnic cohort because this white lady was scared of approaching or talking about race? or because she really just had no concept of it even matter.
[00:30:02] Michelle Gyimah: with hindsight and I'll obviously, I'll tell you the future bits of the story in a minute. I think she was probably told by the client not to put anything about that in there.
[00:30:16] Eman Ismail: Um,
[00:30:16] Michelle Gyimah: I'll, I'll explain why.
[00:30:19] Eman Ismail: Right, right, right, right, right, right. Okay. So at this point, you just so swallow it all. You've, you've, you've asked the question very kindly, very nicely, and she said, everything's fine. So you said, okay, what happens next?
[00:30:34] Michelle Gyimah: So I take myself all the way down to outside of London, let's just say outside of London, um,
[00:30:41] Eman Ismail: That, can I just say that's a lot of traveling for anyone who doesn't know the uk That is, that is a lot of traveling. Okay. And you've got a, you've got a newborn at home as well, and this is a two day conference.
[00:30:51] Michelle Gyimah: and, and also, you know, so I had to go into London and I had to go out of London, so I was like, I'll put like four in the morning to get train. Yeah. So, but anyway, I'm like mis professional, you know, I'm gonna deliver this to the best of my ability and, you know, and I like public speaking and I like trading and, you know, quite personable and everything will be fine.
[00:31:13] Michelle Gyimah: It was a disaster, Eman. It was a disaster. I start to deliver the training. And the person, the client, uh, the person who asked the organization to put this training on, she was in the room. Um, she was in the room, which I think, again, with hindsight, she shouldn't have been there. But anyway, she was there and she had like this notepad and she's obviously, she was taking notes basically on my, on my performance.
[00:31:40] Michelle Gyimah: So I'm delivering the
[00:31:41] Eman Ismail: On your performance, sorry. No, sorry. I thought she was taking notes, trying to learn something. She's taking notes on you.
[00:31:48] Michelle Gyimah: Well, I'll tell you how I found how that she was taking notes on me. So I'm delivering this training and I'm, obviously, I'm nervous because you know who, you know, people get nervous all the time. And at the back of my mind, I was just like, this isn't my work. So I'd made myself as familiar with it as possible, but it wasn't mine.
[00:32:04] Michelle Gyimah: I wasn't shelling with it, but I was just like, it's just two days you can do it. So delivering the work and it's, you know, the first part's kind of going, okay, so then we have a break. And I sit down at my desk and I'm next to the client and she had, um, she, she'd gone to the loo or something and then I noticed like she was taking notes and I see my name written on these notes.
[00:32:28] Michelle Gyimah: So once I see my name, I'm like, I've gotta have a look and see. And she was so critical saying that I, you know, basically she was saying that I was doing basically a rubbish job, that I wasn't engaging and I wasn't doing this and wasn't doing that. So obviously cuz I seen that, and then obviously my confidence was like rock bottom and I still had half a day, half a day to go.
[00:32:49] Michelle Gyimah: So I carry on with the training after the break, et cetera. And then , my god, I'll never forget this Asian woman puts her hand up and I just thought, oh my God, here it comes. I just, you know, you just know what, you know, the reckoning is
[00:33:05] Eman Ismail: you know,
[00:33:07] Michelle Gyimah: So she puts her hand up and she was like, Michelle, this is all really interesting and everything.
[00:33:13] Michelle Gyimah: Yeah. But, and I was like, oh, here it comes. Here it comes. Is there gonna be anything about how to navigate, you know, a predominantly white workplace when you are, you are an ethnic minority? Is there gonna be anything about imposter syndrome if you're an ethnic minority? You know, anything about that. And I honestly wanted the ground to just open up and just take me, just take me now because, and that was where I was like, I knew, I knew this was gonna happen, but because I was being the nice black girl, I didn't push back and say, this is undeliverable
[00:33:52] Michelle Gyimah: You can't, you can't deliver this training. And so I was like, what am I gonna do? In that moment, I was like, stood there in front of like 15 people. What am I gonna do? So I just said, so I said, well, To be honest, the main, you know, focus of this is leadership. And I said, however, if there are things that you want to talk about or things that you think should be in the training, cuz it's two days, obviously, you know, we can have a conversation about that and I can, I can feed that back to the organization.
[00:34:25] Michelle Gyimah: So that's what I did. So we sat and we talked and they discussed the things that were, that was, you know, an issue for them. So I said, okay, I'll take that back. And then we carried on with the rest of the training for the day and I kind of thought, well, you know, that was as good as it could be. It was, I was just so embarrassed because I just knew, I, I, I knew that that was gonna happen and the client took me aside afterwards and said that I shouldn't have done that.
[00:34:57] Michelle Gyimah: She said that I should not have listened to their concerns. I shouldn't have given them time to talk about all that stuff. I should have just carried on with the training. I just felt so
[00:35:08] Eman Ismail: this is, wait, this is, this is, no, I think it's just really important to like clarify the identities of everyone's gone. Cause I think it matters here. So this is another white lady telling you that you shouldn't be talking about race, right?
[00:35:20] Michelle Gyimah: This was the person who hired the organization that I was working for to deliver the training. The woman who was taking notes.
[00:35:28] Eman Ismail: In the, in the back of the, in the back of the room. Okay. And so this client, this, I know that she was representing the client, but she was a white lady as well, right. Telling you not to talk about race. Okay. Okay. Gosh. Okay. So you feed this back to the organization that you were working
[00:35:49] Michelle Gyimah: I did, I did because I, so I left, I, so I left to, to get the, the bus to the train station. This is how, how far away it was to, um, To get the bus to go to the train station to make my way back. And interestingly, um, one woman who was in the training, uh, a Muslim woman who was in the training, she was, she was really lovely.
[00:36:14] Michelle Gyimah: She's like, oh, are you going to X train station? And I was like, yeah. She's like, well, I'm passing there. Would you like a lift? And I was like, oh, that'd be really nice. Thank you. So I got in the car with her and there was one other woman who was also in the training with her, um, an Asian woman. She's like driving along.
[00:36:30] Michelle Gyimah: She's like, so Michelle, how did you think that training went? ? I was like, I sat there in the back of the car, like,
[00:36:38] Eman Ismail: Oh
[00:36:38] Michelle Gyimah: do I tell the truth or do I remain professional about this? And so I just said, I think it could have gone better. I think there might be some lessons for everyone to learn in putting the training together.
[00:36:55] Michelle Gyimah: And she's just said, out of curiosity, did you write it? And I just thought, you know what? I'm not doing this anymore. I'm not pretending anymore. I just went, no . I just said, I didn't
[00:37:05] Eman Ismail: put my name on that training. I did not write it
[00:37:09] Michelle Gyimah: I didn't. And, and then she said, she's like, oh, I know the organization you're working for. Was it such and such? You wrote the train training?
[00:37:17] Michelle Gyimah: And I went, yeah. And she went, all right, I thought, so . I was like, oh, okay. And it just, it was just all so highly, highly uncomfortable. So I got to the train station and I was waiting for my train and I phoned, uh, the organization that I was representing, and I just told them everything. And I just said, look, this is what's happened.
[00:37:44] Michelle Gyimah: This is how I handled it. The client isn't happy with the way that I handled it, but I did the best that I could given the situation. And so it's possible that she might phone you complaining about me. So I'm just letting you know I'm giving you a heads up. This might happen. And I had to go back. I don't think it was the following day, but it was, it was the day after.
[00:38:05] Michelle Gyimah: Um, and so she said, she just sent me an email or a text saying, okay, that's fine. Just carry on for the second day is normal. And I was just like,
[00:38:15] Eman Ismail: Go back to the training that they complained
[00:38:17] Michelle Gyimah: yeah. So I was like, right, okay. But I felt trapped cuz I was like, if I don't do it, I won't get paid. And then I was worried, listen to this, worried about my reputation, worried that, you know, if I didn't do it, people would say stuff about me.
[00:38:33] Michelle Gyimah: So I phoned my boyfriend and I'm in tears because it was just a really horrible experience. And he was like, you know, it'll be fine. You know, remember you're a professional, you're good at what you do. This is someone else's problem. This is someone else's fault, you know, um, you know, you can deliver the second day.
[00:38:51] Michelle Gyimah: I'm sure they understand that it's not about you. , you know, you can do this. I was kind of like, okay. Then I found my friend in absolute flooded tears, and I'm like, I'm never going back ever again. And she was like, you know, said the same thing. You know, look, it's not a reflection on you, it's just, you know, it's a lesson for you to learn.
[00:39:09] Michelle Gyimah: It's a, it's a bad one, but it's not about your integrity or ability or anything like that. But it was, I was just like, I just felt personally and professionally embarrassed. I didn't, I didn't wanna go back, I didn't wanna go back, but I did go back and I just kind of went through the motions. But I think at that point people were just like, I think they felt, um, almost cheated.
[00:39:33] Michelle Gyimah: And actually somebody did say to me, they did say, you know, the person who put up a hand and, you know, set everything up.
[00:39:40] Eman Ismail: This is a, this is a very vocal
[00:39:42] Michelle Gyimah: Yeah. . Yes. Yeah. And she said, you know, I was really excited when I heard that, you know, we were having our own leadership training. That we were having a safe space, a group for us. It was going to be tailored to us.
[00:39:58] Michelle Gyimah: And now she was saying that that was what they were told. This is gonna be tailored towards you and towards your needs. You'll be able to, you know, have open discussions about the things that are important to you relating to your ethnicity and trying to go into leadership. And she said, you know what?
[00:40:14] Michelle Gyimah: Basically she felt cheated. Um, and again, I felt guilty. , I felt guilty all over again, even though it wasn't, it was, it wasn't my fault. So, yeah, so that was the mistake that made me
[00:40:29] Eman Ismail: Okay. I mean, there's just so much that I, that must have been really devastating for that lady because you just think, I mean, they would've felt so seen to or to think that your are, that you're being seen and heard appreciated that your struggles are being noticed and that you know you're gonna get some support.
[00:40:52] Eman Ismail: Uh, I mean, they must have just been so excited and then so devastated to realize that actually no, the company really doesn't care about what you're dealing with, what you're, what you're going through your, your experience here. We just wanna kind of make ourselves feel better. Tell ourselves we, we did something when we did nothing.
[00:41:10] Eman Ismail: Wow. Okay. None of this is your fault. I just, yeah, this is, this is a lot. Okay. So, Yeah, I know. So let's go back to this idea of playing the nice black girl. Why, why do you attribute your response to wanting to play the nice black girl? What did being black even matter in that? Why did it even matter in that situation?
[00:41:38] Eman Ismail: I mean, I, sorry. I know the answer to this, but I want everyone else to
[00:41:41] Michelle Gyimah: Yeah. Well, it, it's a sa it's a coping mechanism, isn't it? And it's a safety mechanism. That idea of you make a choice. , do you tell the truth about a situation or a person or do you make, or do you make a situation or a person feel safe and comfortable? And you know, when I looked at that training , I was like scanning for anything to do with being black or coming from another ethnic minority group.
[00:42:16] Michelle Gyimah: Uh, yeah, my heart sunk because in that split second I had to make a decision like, am I gonna be the person that says, look, if you were delivering this training to this cohort people, this is not good enough. Was it gonna be that person? And then risk, you know, the relationship ending before it even started.
[00:42:34] Michelle Gyimah: And obviously, like I said, I had a newborn and I was in that space of, you know, I need to, you know, bring money into the house, et cetera.
[00:42:42] Eman Ismail: Mm-hmm.
[00:42:42] Michelle Gyimah: do I just be nice and, you know, model through? And hopefully they will, they will. , I don't know, see that I'm a good person and that I have lots of skills and that, you know, we can build a relationship together.
[00:42:58] Michelle Gyimah: Um, and it's, it's that, it's that juggle like when you are navigating workplaces or even even personal relationships, like I know that there've been times when I have played nice. I e not said anything to keep the peace, because I know that if I say something, it's, there's gonna be a whole drama and I'll probably be made out to be the bad person, the angry black girl.
[00:43:21] Michelle Gyimah: So I, so rather than being painted as the angry black girl or the black girl that's asking pertinent questions, I asked it to be the nice black girl.
[00:43:32] Eman Ismail: And, and this is, this is why the race issue here matters, right? Because I think everyone listening can, can remember a time where they just wanted to be, they just wanted things to be easy, right? Easy for them. They didn't wanna be that feel like they were being that difficult person or be perceived as being that difficult person.
[00:43:53] Eman Ismail: You know, let me just be as palatable as possible and whatever, right? Because you worry about, about being the problem, child of the organization or whatever, or the situation, whatever you're in. But the issue here about being about, about playing the nice black girl. Before you've even opened your mouth as black women before we've even opened our mouths, and I will say as black men as well, my, I always worry because I have, um, you know, I have black boys. People have already, people already have some kind of judgment or thought or bias about you, and we can all say, you know, that, okay, not everyone has biases, but that's just scientifically untrue. It's just not, it's just not true. We all have, um, biases that we can and can't control. Some of them we can control.
[00:44:43] Eman Ismail: Some of them we cannot. We can train them, right? Whatever. Now you are, you are in this situation and you are not, you know that you're not just being seen as a woman, you're a black woman, and so you are already up against this idea. You know this, like you said, the the angry black woman. And, and it's almost as if you're, you just, you're trying to go against this label that you've done nothing to deserve from the get-go.
[00:45:15] Eman Ismail: You know, you're already, that's what you are up against and that's what you are trying to, to avoid. And this is a, a, this is a very kind of, um, I guess touchy topic for me, becau, and I'm sure it is for many other black women as well, because, I mean, I've been in those situations, I've been in a situation, in a workplace where I have a, I, I disagree in, I'm disagreeing with people in the room, but this isn't, uh, a disagreement.
[00:45:44] Eman Ismail: Somehow it turns from being just a disagreement between colleagues to, I feel like you're being a little bit aggressive.
[00:45:52] Michelle Gyimah: It's like,
[00:45:53] Eman Ismail: but it's okay. It's okay that I'm using the exact same tone as everyone else in the room, or that people are talking over me and not letting me speak. And when I say, stop talking over me, let me speak.
[00:46:03] Eman Ismail: That's aggressive.
[00:46:04] Michelle Gyimah: Yeah. Yeah,
[00:46:09] Eman Ismail: And that's, that's what we're off
[00:46:10] Michelle Gyimah: it is,
[00:46:13] Eman Ismail: And yeah, it's, it's, it's tough. It really is. It is. And then I wanna say on top of that, I can't even imagine the experience that, um, that black men have. I can't even imagine. I really, I cannot. And I, and I, I worry, I, um, gosh, when I was pregnant with Melan, I used to worry about what it would be like to bring a black boy into this world.
[00:46:40] Michelle Gyimah: Yeah. And that, that's, that's a worry that I think all black parents have. I mean, my, my children are dual heritage that my partner is white and we live in Spain and. , I, you know, I'm still learning what the race landscape is like here, you know, and it's, it's different to the uk but I do sometimes feel in my bones, Hmm.
[00:47:06] Michelle Gyimah: There are some things that are not that different. Like he is, he is nine and already he's had to like, handle kids saying stuff to him, but the color of his skin and the color of my skin and it enrages me cause I'm like, he's nine , you know, and you know, like, just like, and where does, where does that nonsense come from?
[00:47:28] Michelle Gyimah: But obviously that's, that's a whole conversation for another day. But I do, I do understand that that feeling of not only do I have to deal with it, but then when you have children, you have to think about, oh my God, how do I prepare them for the same world? Who likes to say, oh, we don't see color. Who likes to say we are?
[00:47:48] Michelle Gyimah: Oh, we're better than we used to be. And it's like, but that barometer is so low and. My children are still having to deal with this nonsense and I'm now having to parent them, you know, through this nonsense. Yeah, it's tough.
[00:48:03] Eman Ismail: it is. It really is.
[00:48:04] Michelle Gyimah: And also the other thing is, um, sorry, very quickly, it's just one other thing is that when I was in that meeting, um, the initial meeting to discuss the training, another reason why I didn't want to say anything is because I didn't want her to think that I thought that I was a know-it-all.
[00:48:20] Michelle Gyimah: Like, cuz remember at this point and even started working for them, I hadn't done any work. And if I was what I was gonna be, that that black girl that turned up and picked apart, picked apart her work where she has the relationship with the client. She's been with this organization longer than I, she had the senior in her title, she'd been delivering all sorts of GNI training and then, and then I turn up and I'm like, this is , this is not good enough.
[00:48:46] Michelle Gyimah: You know? So yeah, there's, there's, there was a lot happening all at once, but.
[00:48:51] Eman Ismail: Mm-hmm.
[00:48:52] Michelle Gyimah: it's that skill that we all have, that we have to make a split. We have to make a decision in split second. How do I safely navigate the situation? And quite often the safe way to navigate the situation is to not antagonize the other person by, by being honest.
[00:49:08] Michelle Gyimah: Um, it's, it's a lot, it's a lot to carry all of the time.
[00:49:13] Eman Ismail: it is. Okay. So how did this mistake make you
[00:49:20] Michelle Gyimah: Yeah. So on the surface of it, I was like, I am never delivering anyone else's training ever again. That was my first, like, initial thing. But thinking about it deeper, the way that it's changed me is I, I, you know, in my professional capacity, if I am, if I'm put in my face out there to deliver any piece of work, I have to feel a hundred.
[00:49:47] Michelle Gyimah: Percent comfortable with it. Like if I've not written it, then I have to like, note in my bones that it is authentic and it is full of integrity. Like, that training wasn't, and I knew that, but I still went ahead and, and did it. And so now I know that if anybody said to me, oh, I can't deliver this training or do this, you know, could you do this for me?
[00:50:13] Michelle Gyimah: You know, the answer may be yes, depending on what, what it is that you have. And if I don't feel that it meets my standard, like if I can't go to bed at night feeling that I've done a good job, then no. Then I, uh, I will not, I will not take it on. And also, and I will say that as well, I mean, I've been in a position where, um, an investment bank wanted to do some work around, um, helping their black and minority ethnic staff progress in the workplace.
[00:50:42] Michelle Gyimah: I was like, okay, let's have a conversation. and so much of their conversation was around fixing them, working on their,
[00:50:51] Eman Ismail: fixing them.
[00:50:53] Michelle Gyimah: yeah, working on their confidence, um, leadership training around how to be a good leader in the workplace. And everything was geared towards changing them, teaching them how to fit into the organization.
[00:51:10] Michelle Gyimah: And so I was like, oh, here's my moment. So I said, well, I, this is all very interesting. I really understand. I understand what it is you're trying to achieve. However, there's two sides to this coin. So yes, you can talk about, you know, how to navigate this workplace, but we also need to look at the systems in your workplace too.
[00:51:30] Michelle Gyimah: Like how are these line managers going to be preparing this cohort for leadership? And, you know, how are you addressing their biases? How are you addressing how they do their performance management handle grievances, workplace dispute? Um, how are they deciding who progresses and who doesn't? How are you ensuring that all of their kind of managerial experiences is equitable?
[00:51:56] Michelle Gyimah: How are you doing that? And so I said, so if we are going to work together, we need to do both pieces of work, because it's not on, you know, your staff to change the way that they behave in order to be able to progress it. It can't just be a one-sided thing. And I could see her eyes kind of like glazing over, like, like, like, like I'd lost her.
[00:52:20] Michelle Gyimah: Like she just didn't understand. But I could, what I could see in her eyes was like, oh, this is not what we want. And so the conversation just stopped there. And every time I see their name, I always think, Hmm, I wonder what happens to that, that program to fix their black and minority ethnic. , but Yes. But that was, that was a hard no.
[00:52:39] Michelle Gyimah: And I learned that lesson before from not speaking up and saying, this isn't gonna work. This isn't good enough. You're focusing on the wrong things. You need to include these things. Yeah. So that's been the big, the big lesson for me.
[00:52:54] Eman Ismail: Wow. So it's, it sounds like you realized how much your own values mean to you and that you work with clients who are in alignment with your values. Well, I know from being your friend , that there are a lot of organizations who want to seem like, like they want to appear to be doing a. This work and having all these kind of difficult to navigate conversations, but they're not really, like you said, they want to give you a program to deliver and they wanna tell you the kinds of things you can and can't talk about. How do you navigate that? How do you deal with that? And, and also I know you've had this experience of some companies telling you what you can't talk
[00:53:41] Michelle Gyimah: Oh yes.
[00:53:43] Eman Ismail: I mean, just mind blowing. Tell me about that.
[00:53:46] Michelle Gyimah: Yeah. Uh, well, I think I've got to a stage where I filtered out those companies quite well. So now the clients that I actually end up working with tend to be the ones that actually wants to do the deeper work and are not just about looking like their pay gap is going down, not just looking like they're a great employer for women.
[00:54:08] Michelle Gyimah: That they're actually genuinely doing stuff behind the scenes. Um, and I think a lot of that has been around the fact that since that lesson, of work, you know, working with that associate. . Um, I've been very vocal about it and I have basically said, you know, look, if you're looking to tick a box, then I'm, I'm, I'm not the person to work with because my take on my work is not about the optics or the superficial things.
[00:54:36] Michelle Gyimah: It's about making that change on a, on a deeper level that is meaningful, um, that makes a real impact for, for your employees. Um, and in terms of being told as to what I can and can't say, these people get filtered out very, very easily. Like there was one company who asked me to come and give a talk for, um, uh, diversity and Inclusion Week as a construction company, and they wanted to talk about the lack of, um, people from black and minority ethnic groups that go into leadership.
[00:55:14] Michelle Gyimah: I was like, right, fine. I can do that. . Um, and I mentioned something about black hair and how it's not being deemed as professional and how this is a, this is a, you know, a real barrier for a lot of black people. This was a couple of years ago now, and I got told that everything else in my talk was fine, but I wasn't allowed to talk about that,
[00:55:36] Eman Ismail: Did they give you a reason?
[00:55:38] Michelle Gyimah: that they didn't need to because it was obvious that they'd obviously had issues within the company and they didn't want somebody external coming in and then talking about that as, as an issue. And so I wrote them back and I just said, I think it's disingenuous for you to come and invite me to come and talk, uh, for this week, and then try and tell me what I am and can't talk about.
[00:56:05] Michelle Gyimah: So I will, I will not be taking this forward. I'm not doing this work with you. And if you do have a problem in this area, then you do need to seek. Expert advice, and I'd be happy to do that for you, but I'm not coming to deliver this talk if you are gonna tell me that there are specific things I'm not allowed to discuss.
[00:56:22] Michelle Gyimah: And that was the end of that very short relationship.
[00:56:27] Eman Ismail: Wow. Did they reply back to you? Did they say anything? Oh, silence. Okay. So I mean, that's quite a change from the Michelle who said, mm Oh, okay. Okay. Let's go ahead and do this horrific talk to, yeah, if you don't want to talk about X, Y, Z, I'm not gonna come in and do this for your company, because that's disingenuous.
[00:56:49] Eman Ismail: Wow. What a change. What a change. And I feel like also, I mean, I'm not even in your industry, but I as a woman, have experienced, um, You know what, um, people who say that they are for women and for women, you know, being paid properly and making money and all this stuff on the outside, and I guess that that's, that's their brand, that's their marketing and all that stuff.
[00:57:16] Eman Ismail: Um, but when it comes to paying me, they're not so, uh, shall we say, um, well, when it comes to paying me, those messages don't quite come, come through, right? So I'm, I'm sure that you have been invited to, you know, speak at places, speak at events for women's empowerment and where they want you to do it for free, whether anyone wanna pay you.
[00:57:42] Michelle Gyimah: Yeah. So many times like, and I've had to, I probably, at one point, I think I might have even had a template of how to tell people off and say, you know, look, you're asking me as a black woman to come and talk about pay gaps and women's empowerment and how to ask for more. But you haven't. You haven't got a budget, and I just.
[00:58:04] Michelle Gyimah: So you are asking me to basically fund my own gender pay gap , which is said again, this is very disingenuous. is a word that I used a lot. Um, yeah. Some people have needed to be, to be told that because you know, this expectation and we will see it for International Women's Day as well. We'll see it this, oh, you know, it'd be great exposure and you know, just think of all the good you are doing.
[00:58:31] Michelle Gyimah: And I just kind of wanna say, but think about my mortgage payment. You know, exposure's not, you know, Santander are not gonna take exposure vouchers, , you know, so, yeah, it's, it's a, it is a very old, it's a very old story and I think there's a difference between having a low budget and like genuinely having a low budget and having no budget at all.
[00:58:54] Michelle Gyimah: And so, but it, but again, it's been a long time since I've been asked to do free work and I think it's just because, I have set the expectation that I expect to, to be paid for any work that you want me to do. And then, you know, we can have a conversation as to what that looks like. And there are times when I just say, you know what?
[00:59:13] Michelle Gyimah: I'd love to, but financially it's not gonna work for me. So I will, you know, be honest about that and allow you to find, see for somebody else that it's a good fit for.
[00:59:26] Eman Ismail: uh, okay. And are there any times that you do say Yes to doing free, um, speaking events and, and how, how? Is there anything that you can tell us that can help us figure out, like, okay, when is it okay for me to say yes, okay, I'll speak at this event for free, versus No, I really wanna be paid for this, or I need to be paid for this.
[00:59:48] Michelle Gyimah: Yeah, and it's, it's a funny question that, it's funny that you're asking this now because I. , you know, even though I do this often, I still wrestle with that sometimes that like, oh, their budget is only X and do I want to do it? And I, and one of the things that is coming up for me is thinking about the end audience.
[01:00:08] Michelle Gyimah: So, so, you know, that I, I work with corporate organizations that, you know, it's my, that's my bread and butter. And so I have to think about, okay, this event I've been asked to speak at, you know, is it, is it like a, a vanity thing? Is it like an ego stroke because it will look good and I can be like, Hey, I spoke at this event.
[01:00:29] Michelle Gyimah: Or are there going to be people in the audience that are gonna be good for my business in terms of building relationships or, um, you know, getting introductions to new people or, you know, all consultancy work. And I think for me it's about weighing that up and having that kind of barometer helps me to decide whether I think something.
[01:00:52] Michelle Gyimah: Is is good for me. But the other check-in is like, how do I feel about it? Like, does it excite me? And if it doesn't then, then it has to be a no because I have to make space for something else that does excite me and does tick some of those other boxes. So I do do free work, but I'm very strategic about what I say yes to.
[01:01:13] Michelle Gyimah: And I have to be super, super clear as to, okay, what am I gonna get out of it? Other than being able to say, here's another speaking engagement, like what is in it for me? Like who are the, what are the key three things I'm gonna get from this speaking engagement that I won't get on my own or would take me longer to get?
[01:01:34] Michelle Gyimah: And if those things can be guaranteed, then I, then I will, you know, I will consider it. And there'll be other times when it's like, you know, I might not get, you know, great clients from this, but. , but it pays well and, and it is good exposure. So, so it really is about, you know, you kind of checking in with yourself.
[01:01:53] Michelle Gyimah: What, what works, what works for you in that moment,
[01:01:57] Eman Ismail: Yeah, I love that. When, when we met up in Valencia again, I was speaking at this email conference and, um, and you were like, are they paying you? What, what are they paying for? Like, you know, what is this? What is the package that you agreed to? And so it is, uh, I mean, for anyone that's interested in terms of this email conference I was traveling.
[01:02:19] Eman Ismail: Um, I was, it needed a plane ride and I had to pay for my own flights. But the, the organization that invited me to come and speak at the conference paid for my hotel. Um, and also I, I had told them initially that I. I have a little baby, and uh, he was under one at a time and I'm not gonna leave him. I'm breastfeeding, so if you want me to come speak, I need to bring him.
[01:02:43] Eman Ismail: And they said, bring him. And I said, oh, great, thanks. I also need to bring my mom so that she can, uh, take care of him while I am at the event. And they said, great. We'll bring her too. We'll pay for her hotel room. We'll get you a big, we'll get your bigger family room and you can all be there. And, and they were brilliant.
[01:02:59] Eman Ismail: And so I, I paid for my flight and my food and they paid for my hotel. And, and another really big bonus for me was being able to see you because actually I'd, I'd already been saying to anyone who'd listened, I wanna go to Valencia this year. I wanna go see Michelle. And so it just really works perfectly.
[01:03:14] Eman Ismail: So for me, it was about that thing of actually this, this a aligns with my personal kind of life and goals and also business as well. I was excited to do my first international, you know, speaking event. I wasn't being paid for it, but it paid me in other ways, in different ways. And so, Um, yes, I'm also very strategic about the things that I do for free.
[01:03:37] Eman Ismail: Um, and, and sometimes, like you said, it's okay. It's okay to do those things for free, and I think the key is exactly as you said, you gotta be strategic about it, and it's gotta be intentional so that you don't feel like you're trapped or being boxed in or being taken advantage of.
[01:03:51] Michelle Gyimah: exactly. It's not, yeah, and that you don't feel like it's an obligation. Cause I used to feel like that. Oh, they've asked me and so I should do it . It's like, you know, people ask people to do stuff all the time. You don't have to say, just say yes to all of the things, especially if it doesn't suit you.
[01:04:08] Eman Ismail: Mm-hmm. . And I think it's about as well, not knowing how to say no. Sometimes I feel like I've, I was in a similar situation recently. You just, sometimes you just dunno how to say no and you always, I always feel like, okay, I know this now. And then some, there's always a someone somewhere situation catches you out and you just think, have I had nothing in my four years of business?
[01:04:27] Eman Ismail: Like, how am I still struggling to say no, this is ridiculous, . So it happens to all of us. Okay. Michelle, this has been amazing. Um, I wanna ask you one more question, which is, what do you want others to learn from your experience?
[01:04:43] Michelle Gyimah: Yeah. Um, the thing that I would like people to learn from my experience is, is one, to, to lean into your professional expertise. So, you know, for me, I didn't do that. Like I knew that training wasn't good enough and I didn't, I didn't trust that it was safe for me to say. . Um, and so I would want people to, you know, to, to lead with that.
[01:05:08] Michelle Gyimah: Like, if you're being asked to do something and your , your professional name is gonna be all over it, you know, you need to, you need to ensure that you are 100% happy with it. But also, you know, with that in mind, to, to know that you can't kind of separate life and business and like how you feel about running your business.
[01:05:30] Michelle Gyimah: And so again, if something doesn't feel right, like you're being asked to do something and it doesn't feel right to you, it's safe to say no. And if you don't want to give reasons for why you are saying no, that's totally fine as well. I, I see people writing all the time, though, is a complete sentence. If you feel that it's too much to go into the inner details or you don't have the energy for it, it's fine to say no.
[01:05:54] Michelle Gyimah: So I think it's more about, you know, having that, trusting your integrity, trusting your professional integrity and your personal integrity. and to, and to say no and, and to push back when you feel that it's right for you to do so, even at the expense of risk of that other person getting upset
[01:06:16] Eman Ismail: Mm-hmm.
[01:06:17] Michelle Gyimah: you know, making, trying to make life difficult for you because you know, you are the one that has to kind of live with yourself at the end of the day.
[01:06:25] Michelle Gyimah: Um, so yeah, so, so trust, trust your, your gut instincts. I would say
[01:06:31] Eman Ismail: Mm. Okay. Maybe, I know I said I wasn't gonna ask any more questions, but I did just have one. But then you might have also just answered it. You, what would you say to. That person who is playing the nice girl right now? The nice black girl. Or even just the nice. The nice. Okay. Wait, stop. What would you say to that person who is playing the nice black girl right now?
[01:06:55] Eman Ismail: Or even just playing the nice girl?
[01:06:59] Michelle Gyimah: I do, you know what? I would say it's important to have a good. Network of people around you to as your sounding board, because when you are busy playing the nice girl, whether you know black or not, all of that stuff is going on in your head and you need somebody to bounce that off and say, you know what?
[01:07:21] Michelle Gyimah: This situation happened and I didn't say anything, or I could see this problem coming up and I dunno how to handle it. You know, having other people to just go, I think we both know that that's not right. You know, why don't you say this? You know, why don't you think about how you phrase this or do this, or whatever.
[01:07:38] Michelle Gyimah: I think having other people around you would be so important so that you, and it will help you to feel that you're not making things up, that you're not over-exaggerating because there's so much that goes on in your head. You think, oh, I'm making a mountain out of a mole hill. And quite often you are not.
[01:07:56] Michelle Gyimah: But if you're not talking to anyone else, you don't get to have that clarity. because it's just you against you like the whole time. So have that network of people where you can say, look, I'm struggling with this. Help me out here. What do I say? What do I do? Am I being unreasonable or am I actually being reasonable?
[01:08:15] Michelle Gyimah: But I just don't know how to handle the situation.
[01:08:18] Eman Ismail: Mm-hmm. Brilliant. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show, Michelle. It's been so interesting hearing about the experience, uh, about your experience and hearing about the mistake that made you, how, where can people find you if they want to stay connected?
[01:08:36] Michelle Gyimah: Yeah. So the best place to find me is on LinkedIn. Um, so you can just find me under Michelle Jimmer. Um, I also have a podcast called Better Money Conversations, um, where I talk about pay gaps all the time, or you can check me out on my website, which is Equality Pays dot.
[01:08:56] Eman Ismail: Brilliant. Thank you so much Michelle and I will speak to you on WhatsApp
[01:09:02] Michelle Gyimah: Yes. Thank you for having me