Episode #10: Launching Without a Plan

Interview
Written By Eman Ismail

Amy Posner and Kirsty Fanton have been (highly successful) lone wolves in the online business world for years. So when they teamed up to launch a new group coaching programme, they were so excited to be working together they forgot to create a launch strategy.

Without a plan, their launch totally flopped. They sold just 2 spots.

On this episode of Mistakes That Made Me, Amy and Kirsty join me for a conversation about how us business owners sometimes preach one thing for our clients and but then don’t do the same thing for ourselves. As Amy puts it, “It’s difficult to do for yourself what you do naturally for your clients”. 

Listen to this episode to understand how they bounced back from their launch failure.

 
 

Listen to the Episode

 
 

Show notes

Links from this episode:

If you loved this episode, take a screenshot, post it on Instagram and tell everyone you know that this is the podcast to listen to. Don’t forget to tag me! @emancopyco.

And if you’re interested in working with me, visit emancopyco.com/contact.

  • Eman Ismail: Service providers have a big issue, and we're rightly getting called out for it. We're so busy providing our services for everyone else, that we often forget to do that same thing for ourselves. Take me for example, I am an email strategist who writes weekly newsletters for my clients, and I go on and on and on about the merits of writing to your subscribers every single week.

    But when it's time to sit down and write newsletters for my own email list, oh God, I really try, but it's so hard to stay consistent. I probably average out at about one email every 12 or so days, which is not good enough as far as I'm concerned. I know amazing website copywriters who write the best websites for their clients. But their own website? Terrible.

    And they'll admit this themselves. I know designers who are creating beautiful brands for their clients, but their own brand is lacking, to say the least. Social media strategists whose social media pages are dead, dead, dead. You know what I'm talking about. It's a case of the cobbler's children having no shoes. The shoemaker is so busy making shoes for everyone else that he doesn't have time to make shoes for his own kids.

    It's so easy to give our clients the best of us, that we get a little carried away and forget our business deserves the best of us too. We neglect to do things in our business that we would never neglect to do for our clients. But don't worry, it's not just me and you. Experienced business owners Amy Posner and Kirsty Fanton have done it, too.

    Kirsty Fanton: We were so excited about working together that we got so caught up in that, that the way we launched it was something that neither of us would ever have liked okayed with from a strategy perspective for a client. So the first launch of that program absolutely flopped. I think we sold two spots.

    It's embarrassing to admit, it's sort of surprising to admit, and I, but this is the weird thing.

    Amy Posner: I mean, we both see this over and over and over and over and over and over and over again, right? How it's so difficult to do for yourself, what you do so naturally for clients, you know. And I said to Kirsty, I mean, she's, you know, she's, she's a launch expert. Like if her client had come to her with this, she would've been like, yeah, that's very cute.

    Mm-hmm. good, good for you. No, we're not doing it anything

    Eman Ismail: On today's show I'm speaking to Amy Posner and Kirsty Fanton. Amy is a conversion copywriter, business coach and serial business owner, and Kirsty is a launch copywriter and ex psychotherapist. They joined forces and became business partners, podcast co-hosts, and honestly a duo to be reckoned with.

    We're talking about the time they were so excited to launch their new group program, that they did everything they wouldn't do if they were launching for one of their clients. This fatal error meant their first ever launch together flopped, and they had a matter of weeks to come up with a plan and fix it.

    And How did we both feel about publicly admitting that we, well, or we were embarrassed that we messed up, that we just did something that was kind of stupid and kind of, surprisingly stupid. But I think we also are both confident enough to realize like, okay, you know, we're just people.

    Amy Posner: We did something stupid. And we know that people do this particular thing all the time. Like, oh look, we fell into the And so there's like, there's good intelligence in that, I think, and good and good knowledge. And neither of us were, you know, ashamed or embarrassed of saying, hey, this is how we screwed up, this is how we're Welcome to Mistakes That Made Me, the podcast that asks extraordinary business owners to share their biggest business mistake so you know what not to do on your road to success. My name's Eman Ismail, and I'm an email strategist and copywriter for online business owners and e-commerce brands. I'm a podcast lover, a pizza binger, a proud mama of two, and I have this radical idea that if maybe us business owners were a little less guarded and a lot more open about the mistakes we've made, we could help each other grow a business that brings us more joy and less regret.

    Eman Ismail: Okay. Amy Posner and Kirsty Fanton. Thank you so much for both being here.

    Kirsty Fanton: Thank you for having

    Amy Posner: Thanks for having us.

    Eman Ismail: I am so excited to have you both here, but you're both sick with Covid.

    Kirsty Fanton: Yes, yes, we are.

    We hosted an event in Mexico last week and half of the group got covid on the way home and we were part of that half. So we sound a bit throaty, a bit like Macy Gray vibes, but hopefully that's okay.

    Eman Ismail: It's okay. I feel like you made it a trip that they'll never forget. They will really never forget it.

    Amy Posner: Yeah, let's hope this is a thing. They'll, that will fade and then they'll remember all of the other things.

    Eman Ismail: Yeah, exactly, exactly.

    Okay, I know you both, because you've both been my coaches. Amy, I joined your mastermind more than once and it was brilliant. Kirsty, I joined your brilliant brain camp and I think I was in them both at the same time actually. And so I've known you both for a good few years now, and I've been following you for longer I think so

    I know your individual stories. So let's start off right there actually, because user business partners. But let's start off with Amy. Amy, tell us who you are and what you do.

    So I, I guess, I guess really what I would consider myself as a serial entrepreneur more than anything, I've been in business for three decades, and I've done various things and, and most recently, I guess in the last decade I've been around the, the copywriting world specifically and the small business on small online business world. And what that's refined into for me is teaching, business skills, teaching people who are really competent at their craft, how to actually live well and make money, learning how to kind of move that move in the business world. So that's me.

    Eman Ismail: Thank you. Okay. And you Kirsty what, who tells us who you are and what you are.

    Kirsty Fanton: you. Sure. So I'm Kirsty Fenton. I am a launch copywriter and an ex psychotherapist, and I had my first baby about 18 months ago. So in mind we've been sort of in the trenches together, even though it was your second that was so, sort of more aligned with the timing of, of my little first one. so my business is sort of in a bit of a process of changing and shifting at the moment, I think. So rather than the majority of my income coming from doing projects with clients, most of it is coming from my online course, which is brain camp as you mentioned. and also, coaching, and also digital products. So I'm sort of in that, I guess messy middle at the moment between sort of shifting business models.

    So that's me.

    Eman Ismail: Yeah. And you said that we were kind of in the trenches together. Yeah, we really were because there was a, there's a five year gap, almost, I think five and a half year gap between my two kids. And so by the time I was having my second, it felt like I was doing this all over again, like , because I could not remember anything from the first pregnancy, from the first, like those newborn, like it was just all gone.

    All of it was gone. So we definitely went through that together. so tell me how you came together, because you are like just the most brilliant partnership and almost like, I would never have guessed it. You know what I mean? Like, you, you, I feel like the most unlikely partnership. I don't know, because these are on the opposite sides of the world as well.

    Okay. And so how did this happen? Because it's just the most like genius, the most genius partnership.

    So I can, I mean I can answer this one if you like. We have practice because after the retreat last week, everyone asked us this question.

    So we first met at the first ever TCC I R L event in New York, which was I think 2018.

    Amy presented and it was an amazing presentation and when I saw her I was like, I need to seek this Amy person out at the after party, just to have a chat about their preorder and just, you know, learn a bit more about them.

    Kirsty Fanton: So I did, and then we proceeded to get drunk together. I think it's fair to say that after Party and then we ended up at Katz Deli at like 3:00 AM. Like, and we bonded over the fact that we both have very small heads, and can never find hats . So that was sort of the first meeting. And then we met again about a year later, in the think tank Mastermind retreat in San Diego. Robin Kira bought Amy along as a guest for maybe a day or day and a half of that retreat. And I was so excited to see you again, Amy. I don't know if you got the same about me, but we had another chat there. And then after that I actually hired Amy as a coach for three months. So we worked together in that capacity.

    So Amy is the coach and me as the client. And then by the end of that, we both decided that we really liked each other, and then I think we respected each other's way of working and certain things about that. And then we launched an online program together at the start of 2020. And we met in person again in March, 2020, just before Covid really sort of exploded at another event in the States. And then I guess things have just continued from, from there.

    Eman Ismail: Okay. And, and just to clarify for anyone who doesn't know, TGIRL is the copyrights club in real life, which isn't a real life event. So you've actually met in real life there before you became business partners. Okay? Because Kirsty, you are in Australia, and Amy, you are in the us. Whereabouts in the US are you,

    Amy?

    Amy Posner: I'm in the Pacific Northwest, so I like the forest for this, like western corner.

    Eman Ismail: Okay. So this is why I was like, how did this happen? But you actually met, which is okay. Amazing. And Amy, I feel like when I said it like it's the most unlikely, but like most genius partnerships, you were like, Hmm, why? Why ?

    What were you thinking then?

    Amy Posner: Well, it's just interesting to hear you say that, and I have no idea like what, you know, what anyone's perception of the partnership even is because interestingly, you know, we, what we realized is we saw eye to eye on so many things, and I'm not sure what, you know, it doesn't matter where we were each coming from, you know, whether it was, it was business, political, personal.

    We just, we just kept sort of agreeing and agreeing and agreeing with each other. And, you know, of course you always like someone who thinks like you do. Now I'm just teasing. But,you know, we, we really just had a lot in common, in business and coming from very different perspectives. And so, you know, we wanted more of that.

    You know, we wanted to sort of mush that together and work together and we felt like there was something that we could, could bring to the world. And so, it's interesting because I think I, I guess my reaction there was we were both a little bit tentative, we're both pretty much lone wolves, I'd say. and it was kind of like, Hmm, love collaborating, but ooh, you know, it's like, do I want you in my money and in my business And like, it, it was a thing.

    I mean, it's been a hard one for us, I would say in that regard.

    Eman Ismail: I can imagine. I mean, it's one thing being friends, but then bring, like going into business together as a whole new world. And I guess maybe you're kind of worried as well about ruining the friendship even if things kind of take a turn. Was that a concern?

    Amy Posner: Mm-hmm. for sure. Yeah. And just, and just not knowing, I mean,

    you know what, things get very weird when money gets involved. It just can, it, it's a real, it's one of those major, you know, issue items, right? Like, it can be really tricky.

    Eman Ismail: Yeah. So who was it that came up with the idea of, of doing something together? How did that conversation go?

    I suspect it may have come from you, Amy, because I can't imagine past Kirsty who was like, definitely like I was just starting to hit a really good growth trajectory. I can't imagine Kirsty coming to my coach and being like, hey, let's work together as a partnership.

    Kirsty Fanton: So I suspect it was you, but I have no actual recollection of how that started. I just remember the feeling of being like, holy shit, Amy Posner wants to partner with me, and I was very excited.

    Amy Posner: Oh, that's cool. I did, I did not know that. But I could see that you would be right, that that would've happened. Also, I think you were more hesitant to collaborate gen just generally. I think you very much wanted to, you know, keep in your lane and kind of keep moving forward and you did not want any distractions on the path.

    And I think I just kept sort of tenting you and. I don't know. Eventually, I guess, I guess I must have worn you down.

    Kirsty Fanton: I think you did . It's so funny to think of that now. Yes.

    Eman Ismail: Well, I'm glad you did because you have an amazing podcast together, Business Badassery, and it's, it's just a really cool show. So it's for freelancers, not just copywriters, right. For all freelancers. And you answer questions that people submit like an advice column type of thing, but an audio advice column, is that what you call it?

    Yes. And it's one of my favorite podcasts and it's really short and sweet, maybe 20 minutes long, 15, 20 minutes long per episode. And it's just a great podcast. So how did you start that? And I was really surprised, by the way, to see that it's already been over two years that you've been doing the podcast.

    I dunno where time goes. Cause I remember listening to the first episode.

    Kirsty Fanton: Oh, you're an original

    Eman Ismail: I am an original. Because I remember you talking about creating a podcast and me being like, oh my gosh, I need to listen to this. I actually remember where I was cuz I was playing it in my car driving. Yeah. I genuinely remember one of the first episodes and, I just thought, this is absolutely brilliant and it was the kind of coaching that I just really needed.

    I really, I still listen to it, you know, weekly. But it was really the k exactly the kind of podcast that I needed, like business coaching, super, like actionable advice. It's just a brilliant podcast. So how did that happen? Who came up with that idea as well?

    Amy Posner: Well, .

    So I, I, I love advice columns. I absolutely love them. I have three of them that I read every single day. I confess, the fourth one I'd like is just a saver on Sunday, but I love the idea and I've always wanted to have one. I've always wanted to have an advice column, and I don't know how we started talking about it.

    Maybe I just shared that I liked it and Kirsty did too. And we started, you know, with the British term Agony Aunt, which you'll be familiar with, which is not something that we use in the States. And I just love that. She's like, oh, you mean like an Agony Aunt for business? And I was like, oh, yes, that's exactly what I mean.

    But one thing that we had talked about, cause we had talked about doing other projects together, and for both of us, it had to be a really light lift. It couldn't be something that was too complicated, that was gonna be very involved in terms of time. Like we can devote the time to create it, but if there's gonna be a lot of other time involved in the production or admin of it, it isn't gonna fly.

    Amy Posner: And so that seemed like, I, I think Kristy, tell me if this is wrong, but I feel like it was something you could get on board with

    Kirsty Fanton: Yeah.

    Amy Posner: I was still trying to reel you in. Yeah.

    Kirsty Fanton: A hundred percent yes. Because I think that was, and I know we're gonna talk about the program a little bit later, but that was sort of at the end of that. We wanted to find a way to keep working together. But as you say, Amy, it really had to be light and easy for both of us. and I dunno if Amy knew it, I don't know if you knew at the time, Amy, but I was also trying to get pregnant.

    So I was hyper aware that perhaps adding this a new project was, you know, not the right time for that. So I remember Amy kept being like, we could do this and this. And I was like, no, no. So I think we got to the podcast because it felt so fun. Like it just meant that we would get to catch up once a month and talk about business things and we're like, we do this anyway, like , why not make it into a thing?

    And of course, with the, I guess the Agony Aunt or the advice column kind of setup, you know, there's no content planning because we just answered the questions that come into us.

    Eman Ismail: No, that feels, that feels so ideal to me. That idea of like getting, just getting on the mic and answering questions because I've created this thing, this huge thing for myself now , where with this podcast, I absolutely love doing it, but gosh, does it take a lot of time even just to put one episode together.

    I like scripting the intros, the outros, the, you know, and then I'm recording the intros and the outros and then we're editing, then we're playing with all the sound and the music. It's a lot to just do one episode. So when hearing you say, like, I just, I just sit down and we just talk. That sounds lovely.

    Kirsty Fanton: It really is.

    Amy Posner: I

    I just wanna go slightly sideways for a second because you did, because I remember you had been talking about wanting to launch your podcast for a long time, and when you did, I was so blown away. I was like, of course. It's like, it's perfect. I mean, of course it's taking you effort because you're doing such an outstanding job. And I was like, of course.

    Just had to say, just had to throw that in.

    Kirsty Fanton: That's exactly what I was gonna say. I was like, yes, but Amanda, like yours is so perfectly intentional, like it's so curated. You have perfect, like ads for your own offers and products that correspond with the timing so beautifully. Like I can imagine it would be growing your audience so well, because you get amazing people on the podcast with the exception of these two nuts that you have here right now.

    So yes, like me, I can totally see that it would be so much work. And also it's such a perfect, intentional example of what a podcast can be, whereas I feel like ours is just like the opposite of that.

    Eman Ismail: Thank you so much. That really means a lot. And it's funny because I feel like, oh gosh, I must have, Amy just must have been sick of me. Because I was saying for the longest time, Amy, I really wanna start a podcast. And at some point Amy is just probably just too nice to say to me, just start the bloody podcast already. Just do the thing. I've been going on about it for so long. But I will say that with your podcast, I feel like there's mine, which is gr which is great. Like, I love the creative process. I think that's why I did it. Like, I needed a creative outlet. I wanted something to be like, you know, just something to experiment with, and that kind of thing.

    But I love that yours is just, it's this on demand business coaching. Like, you know, it's just exactly as easy. Describe it, no fluff, like business advice. And like you can literally, you listen to it and you walk away knowing what to do in, you know, whatever situation he is talking about that day. I also wanna mention that to you.

    Again, I just came back from Mexico. You organized this retreat to Mexico? To which I was invited, I've just gotta say. but sadly couldn't go. I couldn't go because it was just, it was just a lot with the kids and stuff. And you just came back and I've seen everyone kind of posting these amazing, gorgeous pictures of the time that they had and getting to meet you two in real life.

    Tell me about the retreat. Why did you decide to create an in-person, live event?

    Amy Posner: So we could get together.

    Eman Ismail: Love it. It's that simple. , we wanted to

    see each other.

    Amy Posner: no, no. That, that, I mean, that's true. We were definitely, we definitely wanted to see each other, but I think we also wanted to test out this idea of, you know, what would it be like to be in person and to sort of do something. know, the, the thing is we don't, as business owners, we're, we're not really great at stepping away, right? Stepping away and reflecting and thinking. Or if we do it, we certainly don't do it for three or four days and we don't do it in the company of other people. And I guess our question was, you know, what could that be? Like, you know what, what if you did have these other brains? And what if you did have the luxury of time?

    And interestingly, and of course, you know, wouldn't it be lovely if it was someplace nice and beautiful and pretty? And what it turns out is that's really inspiring because it's, it's, it's one thing to dream in your office. It's another thing to dream when you're having an experience that you really want to be having and that you really want your life to be like, but you're like, hmm, you know, I mean, we all have all the reasons that we hold back or we don't. But I, I think planning and thinking in that kind of environment, just really, and this was not something that I had anticipated, but it really surprised me. It just really opens you up in a, in a whole other way.

    And then being in the company of other people who are entrepreneurial and, and thinking and can, you know, can give you ideas just. It's brilliant. And I think it came together in a way that was better than we could have even planned or expected. And, and we didn't know, and we wanted to prove the concept. Is this something that we would enjoy? Was it something that would deliver value? Was it something that we might, you know, want to put into our business mix eventually?

    So, or, you know, as a, as a more regular thing.

    Eman Ismail: Amazing. And what was the, what was your favorite part?

    Kirsty Fanton: Oof. That's a hard question . So, I like my, I have to say, I like to give this context. I called Colin my husband and Ollie my little boy on the third day, I think. And Colin was like, how's it going? And I was like, you know what? This is my favorite week of work ever across both my careers. So for me, I think I'm gonna find it impossible to pick a moment out of that.

    It just, like, I can't overstate . How? Like, like magical and just like, It just felt like alchemy, the right, like the people were amazing and they all brought something so beautiful to that experience and they made it what it was. And to be able to experience that with them in this amazing villa in Mexico that was just like out of this world, like beautiful, and also to do it in the context I think of, you know, a post covid world, not that covid is obviously gone, we're evidence that it's still very much alive. But, you know, in a world where it definitely feels like a bigger thing now to actually travel overseas and to get together in person and layer on top of that, the fact to be able to take a week off to go to Mexico as a mum of a toddler, like, I just think all of that really for me personally, piled in to just make it such a magic week.

    So I'm not gonna be able to answer your question, sorry, but maybe Amy will have more luck picking a, picking a favorite bit.

    Amy Posner: You know, I, I think my favorite bit is that we did it. That we actually just did it. Like my bit there, it was all of it. I mean, it was kind of like Kirsty said, there was, I mean, there were, there were highlights that were business, there were highlights that were emotional and personal, and there were food highlights. I mean, there were all kinds of things. You know, and I think back to when we planned this last summer, and it was kind of like a, you know, do, do we do it? Do we not? Do we do it? You know, do we not? And the, the fact that we, that we actually did it and, and one thing that we've been talking about in terms of our partnership is that there's a real ease in what we do and how we work together. And this, and this was so much that. And it was more proof to us that we do work really well together. Because some of it, you know, we did a lot of programming in advance. We did all the programming in advance, but we kind of did several programs because we didn't know exactly how, what was gonna be needed because we haven't done this before.

    And so we allowed ourselves to be kind. . Well, I'm not gonna say kind of. We had let ourselves create some of that on the fly as we were there and responding to people's needs and, and we didn't know, like, would it work for us? And b would it work for them? Right? Like, how are people gonna feel about that? Are we gonna seem half-assed? I don't know. We didn't know. But it worked brilliantly and it just felt really, really good to both of us and really easy.

    Amy Posner: And that's, that's the, the click I think we're both looking for, you know, if we're gonna, and it's one thing, we have our own things down. We both run businesses we really love rolling around in, but if we're gonna do something together, it's gotta add to that. Right. And, and we're not talking, I mean, financially, sure. But it's gotta be like, it's gotta be uplifting. It's gotta give us both something more than we're getting, just being alone.

    Eman Ismail: That, that sounds amazing. And, and I mean, I've heard from people who've just come back and they, they definitely had an amazing time. So whatever strategy you use, like it worked like, you know, be, do, deciding things on the fly, it worked clearly.

    Kirsty, you said earlier on, I want to like go back to what you said where, when you were thinking about past you, you can't have imagined you having the confidence to go up to Amy, who was then, who was your then coach and say, hey, you wanna start a business together. So you are definitely not the same person. I feel like you are. I, I don't know, you tell me. I, but I feel like from the outside you are super confident. How do you feel now when you look at your kind of partnership with Amy? Amy, who is, is also my coach as well and was for a while and still is. I feel like Amy, you are one of those mentors who will always be my mentor, whether we're working together closely at a specific time or not.

    Eman Ismail: How do you feel now working with Amy, knowing that Amy has, like she said, like 30 decades of entrepreneurial experience. Do you still feel, I don't know if intimidated is the right word, or whatever it was you were feeling back then, do you still feel like that?

    No, I really don't. And I think the feeling at the time was, as I've mentioned earlier, like holy shit, like Amy Poston wants to work with me. And it did feel like I was kind of riding coattails, not in the sense of like not splitting the work equally because I think we've always done that really well, but more like, I'm gonna get a lot more visibility from this because I'm just starting to like hit my stride and Amy's so established.

    Obviously I still haven't been in business anywhere near the amount of time that Amy has been in. but I definitely feel like, I don't know, I just feel like we're equals because I just feel like everything we do together is so beautifully shared. So it just feels very natural and I think as Amy said, like whenever we work together, you know, it's really easy and light and enjoyable. So I think all of those things fold into the partnership. Just feeling really good and really easy and, and there's no more of that. I dunno if it was intimidation, but no more of that like, holy shit factor, if that

    Eman Ismail: Yeah,

    Kirsty Fanton: Yeah,

    Eman Ismail: Yeah, that makes perfect sense. Well, I want to move on to what I brought you here for. Are you ready to get to the meat of this episode?

    Amy Posner: Of course.

    Eman Ismail: Let's do it.

    Kirsty and Amy, what is the mistake that made you?

    Kirsty Fanton: So the mistake that we made was doing our business together, something that we would never, ever, ever let our clients do.

    Eman Ismail: Okay. I'm intrigued. Like I thought, I thought I knew what your mistake was gonna be, but that's like, that's a little bit different to others. That's what I was expecting. Okay. So let's go back a little bit. Let's start from the beginning. What is this thing that you did that you would never let your clients do?

    Kirsty Fanton: We mentioned earlier that we, launched a program together, was at the start of 2020 and it was called Business Badassery. And it was an online group program to help people do the next thing in their business, to work out what it was and then to actually action it and make it real.

    And we were so excited about working together that we got so caught up in that, that the way we launched it was something that neither of us would ever have liked okayed with from a strategy perspective for a client. So the first launch of that program absolutely flopped. I think we sold two spots.

    Eman Ismail: Oh, this is so interesting. Okay, so what exactly did you do for this launch? Like what was the launch plan? What was the launch strategy? What did it look like?

    And just to be clear, this was a, this was a group coaching program, right?

    Kirsty Fanton: Yes.

    Eman Ismail: Okay.

    Amy Posner: And we were looking for what, maybe something in the range 15, 20 people in the program.

    Kirsty Fanton: Yeah.

    Amy Posner: Right. And so, we had those, those two people at first, and then we looked at each other and we were like, we didn't make a plan. We really did not, we did not have a strategy. it's embarrassing to admit, it's sort of surprising to admit, and I, but this is the weird thing.

    I mean, we both see this over and over and over and over and over and over and over again, right? How it's so difficult to do for yourself, what you do. So naturally for clients, you know, and I said to Kirsty, I mean, she's, you know, she's, she's a launch expert. Like if her client had come to her with this, she would've been like, yeah, that's very cute.

    Mm-hmm. good, good for you. No, we're not doing it. Anything like that. But we really got very caught up in the moment. And, you know, it's like, oh, we'll just send out a letter and people will know and they'll, they'll want to do this cuz they'll understand how great it is. And it's like that just defies every piece of. Business sense that we actually have. So, but, but what that brought us to is we, so we had to, we had to put our heads together and say, okay, you know, this flopped. Like what do we wanna do? Are we committed to it? Are we committed to one another? Do we go hide our heads in the sand? What do we do?

    Eman Ismail: Okay, we're gonna get to that in a second because I'm still stuck on this part where you guys launched and had no plan because you two make your clients a lot of money, like you know what you're doing. And so it really is that case of like, we do it for everyone else, but maybe we just kind of forgot when it came to our thing.

    So you obviously have thought of what this group coaching program is gonna be. You've planned it, you know what it is. I think you had the sales page done right? You create a sales page for it.

    Kirsty Fanton: We had a very dodgy sales page, like it possibly wasn't the one that you saw in the, in the second launch, yes.

    Eman Ismail: Okay. So that's interesting because I didn't know if you remembered that. Amy specifically spoke to me about this program at the time. So from my perspective, let me tell you how it was from my perspective. I, this was, was this 2020? Was this 2020? Okay. So Covid, it just hit, my things were not going well in my business.

    I was making very little money with the nursery's clothes. My son was at home with me. I was making very little money. Things had just started to pick up like in the winter, and then, I was starting to kind of do well again, but it was still, you know, a little bit touch and go. I wasn't sure if it was just like a fluke, like, is everything okay again?

    Or, you know, is this just a fluke type thing? And then Amy messages me, private DMs me and invites me personally to join this program. And when Amy Posner DMs you personally and invites you to your program, you join the damn program. But I could not join the program because I did not have the funds. And so I was devastated at the time.

    I was like, this is insane. I didn't even know that you knew who I was. Amy, at that point, I didn't even know that you knew who I was. So I was like blown away, like, kind of like the reaction Kirsty had, like, oh my gosh, really? I exist to you. So I checked out the sales page and it sounded great to me. I just, I just didn't have the money. I couldn't join. So I do remember reading the sales page. So that's how I know you had one, but that's all you had. What about like what, so what about emails? Any emails? Did any emails go out? Anything. Anything else?

    Kirsty Fanton: So we did start by just individually inviting people who we thought would be cool to work with. And again, we were so caught up in our excitement of working together that we forgot that, you know, these people like them, us together as a partnership was brand new. And we didn't like, bother explaining like, the value or the potential value of that.

    We'd like, you know, we'd like, here's this idea, we'd love you in it. That's it. When we realized that we were not going to fill up the program with those personal invites, we then sent out some emails to our lists.

    But again, there was no strategy. In fact, I remember, this is such a funny memory. So it was just after Christmas 2019, so the very beginning of 2020, it was kind of pre, pre covid. Pre Covid. Yeah, it would've been, cause the first case is in February, I think. and it was the summer of really bad bushfires here in Australia.

    So I remember in my little apartment recording an FAQ video with you, Amy. Well, there was like all this crazy smoke outside . And I think even in hindsight, I would love to find that video now because I suspect even in that video, we were like, oh, people must have questions and objections because no one's joining. I suspect we didn't really do a good job of addressing those. I think we just had a good yarn.

    Eman Ismail: And the thing is, I can imagine that because you took it on so well, I can imagine you were just getting on the mic and just having a great time. just having a whole load of fun. Oh my gosh. Okay. So. So these two people join and you think, well, I guess it is that when you realize like, we don't have a plan, like we need to, we need to like get something together. Is that the point at which you realized

    We realized, but I also think it was like a strangely slow realization because we were so jazzed about this offer and about working together. Like it's gonna be awesome. And then we were like, shit, , no one else can see how awesome it's gonna be. We've only got these two like die hard fans. And I also wanna say like,

    Eman Ismail: die hard, hard. I love that they were die hard, Just like, yeah.

    Kirsty Fanton: They just trust enough, enough without any like, appropriate marketing to be like I'm in. And I dunno how that happened. Anyway, and I wanna add too, that I was so embarrassed when we had the realization not only because I'm a launch copywriter and like this is my worst launch ever and it is my own, but also this is my chance to work with Amy motherfucking Posner.

    And I, like, I failed. So for me it was, I was, I was absolutely mortified. So mortified, I can't even come to put it into words.

    And here I am thinking, like, and I'm thinking, well, why? Why did you wanna work with me? Look what I brought you into. Instead, you're going like, this is the experience.

    Eman Ismail: Oh my gosh. So Amy, what was on your mind? What was happening inside your mind at that point? What were you thinking?

    You know, it's so, it's so hard to imagine this now, but same thing Kirsty said, just really embarrassed. Like, how, like, like what were we thinking? How did we forget and how did we, you know, how did we break the rules? Because, I mean, not only did we know the rules, but we've been teaching other people the rules, right?

    Amy Posner: I mean, and not just clients, but, but you know, other people we work with. I mean, it's just, it's so, there's just, there's some huge irony in there because we know this happens all the time. And I think once I was done being embarrassed, I was like, okay, okay, I see how this happens. And this is probably a good, a good, you know, a good cautionary tale.

    Know

    Eman Ismail: Mm-hmm. .So the two people that did join, did you let them know that they were the only two people who joined?

    and

    Kirsty Fanton: Yeah, because, and I, I, I suspect the conversation's sort of turning now into like what we did with this huge, glaring era of a mistake. But I think once we realize that we are not gonna get any more than these two people if we continue with our no strategy strategy, you know, we have two choices here. We can either refund both of them and like probably put it into our partnership because what a bad start to working together, or we can, because we believe so much in the value of this thing that we have created, our value here has not been in the offer, it's been in the marketing of the offer.

    We can publicly acknowledge, we can of course, let those two people know first. Hey, you were the only two people who joined. We're so sorry. Thank you for believing in this offer. We believe in it too. We're gonna relaunch it. We're gonna push the start date out by like four weeks, I think it was. If that's okay with you and we're gonna do this thing properly. And, and that's the path we chose.

    Eman Ismail: Oh, I love that because, oh, I love that I'm such a people pleaser that I would be, I think I would've felt pressured to go through with it, with just those two people and like, and just be like, oh, I'm okay. I'm just gonna do it. Either that or I would've completely given up and then just refunded them. But I love that you were confident enough to say, say, look, this is what we're gonna do. We're gonna push it back and we're gonna try again. I love that. Okay. We'll talk about the, again, launch in a second.

    But If you were telling your client how to launch, what is the first thing you would tell 'em to do that you didn't do? For anyone who's not, you know, versed in launches, what is, what should you have done?

    Kirsty Fanton: I mean, I think like the, the biggest bare bone thing is like, have a strategy. We didn't even have a strategy. It's like, you know, and so of course, because we didn't have one, we hadn't thought through any of the pieces that make launches work, we hadn't thought about, okay, how are we gonna build a launch list for this thing?

    What stage of awareness is our ideal client at? Who even is the ideal client beyond these individual names that we wanna invite? So we didn't even have that. And then of course, once you can build that picture and work out their stage of awareness and what they're thinking about, et cetera, and, and what they're really wanting, then you can start to build out that pre-launch content and you can work out how to get 'em to the point where they're gonna see the offer and feel like, yes, I really want this, this is perfect. I'm ready for this. So like, we did nothing. We did none of that.

    Eman Ismail: Amy, did you want to add something?

    Amy Posner: No, it's the exact same thing. I mean, I just think that I wouldn't even start a client without knowing that that work was possible. Right. I wouldn't take a project on unless I knew that that was going to be a component of it. Because I, I, in my view, it, it, it just has way less of a chance of being successful if you don't do your, you know, proper audience research. I mean, that's what we do, right? So, hello? Crazy. Just very crazy.

    Kirsty Fanton: I think it's like the equivalent of a client coming to you and saying, hey, yeah, I wanna launch this thing. But all I really need is for you to write a sales page. And then I think that's fine. And then as soon as you, as the service provider, ask any questions, like, oh, okay, I'm just curious about you, what are your goals for this launch? And maybe they could answer that like 15 to 20 people. Okay. And like how big's your audience? I think as soon as anyone would've asked us that question, we would've been like, oh yeah. Like no one really knows about us as a partnership yet. So I guess in that respect, we don't really have a ready audience , like, so we didn't even get to that point.

    Eman Ismail: That's so interesting. I didn't even think about that because I'm thinking individually, you both have audiences, very loyal audiences, but you are thinking about your audience together. I never considered that. That's a third audience. That's so interesting.

    Amy Posner: Well nor had we

    Eman Ismail: Oh, wow. There we go.

    Kirsty Fanton: I, I mean, to to, to be fair, I think that, you know, people who did join the program obviously had come from either of our audience, but I guess they had not had an experience of us together in any sense at all. So, and you know, some of them didn't know me, a few of them didn't know Amy. So it's, you know, it's like in that way, yes, we had our own audiences and I think that's where people came from, but we hadn't introduced them to the idea of us together as a partnership.

    So there was a gaping hole there.

    Eman Ismail: Okay. And how did those two people respond, by the way, when you said, look, we wanna push it back and we wanna relaunch, what was their reaction?

    Amy Posner: They were brilliant. Really easy. Tha yeah. We'll, we'll stick around. We're happy to do it. What, how can we help, you know, what can we say? I, I think actually they let us use their, what they had to say about why they joined, if I remember correctly.

    Kirsty Fanton: They did, they let us use their intake forms as social proof and we also offered them just an additional, no extra charge at all, two on one session, an hour long session just to be like, thank you for believing in this and we are so sorry that we have messed this launch up. How can we support you in the meantime?

    So they sort of got off. Bit of a head start in some ways. And yeah, like Amy said, they were so generous and cool with it, and they didn't waiver as well. I kind of expected that maybe they might be like, nah, I'd actually just prefer a refund, but that was not even a conversation. So, yeah.

    Eman Ismail: Yeah, I love that. I was just gonna say, like, did, did you not worry that they would be like, oh wait, no one else has joined this like, oops. Like, have I made a mistake? Or were you, did you know that it'd be okay?

    Amy Posner: Neither. I think we just felt like we had to tell the truth and this is where we were at. And if, cuz one of the things that we discussed at the, at the point of realizing that we only had two people and the thing was starting any minute, et cetera, was, you know, are we gonna push forward? Are we gonna cancel it?

    You know, do like, there are all a lot of factors to consider. Like, is this a, you know, is this a Kirsty Amy production and maybe this is not such a good, a good thing after all. Or like, you know, we just didn't know. And we had to really look at it and look at each other and say, okay, do we believe in it or don't we, and what are we going to do?

    And. I can't remember, I don't know which one of us came up with the idea if we came up with it simultaneously, but it's like, let's just tell the story. Let's just be transparent, tell the truth, and redo it. And we'll either fill it or we won't. But we haven't filled it yet. So, and it's interesting because in retrospect, I think if we hadn't pushed through, we wouldn't be here right now.

    I think I probably, we probably would've, you know, we'd still be friends. We would've gone our own ways more and it would've been okay, but it wouldn't be what it is for sure.

    Eman Ismail: Okay. I love that.

    I think this is a nice kind of place to move on to the second part of this, which is, okay, so you launched, you launched this thing, without a plan, which you would never do for your own clients if two people joined and . Now we're looking back at this. Tell me, how did this mistake make you?

    Kirsty Fanton: Well, I think it's what Amy just said. I think had we not made that mistake, we wouldn't have so quickly had to work out our values as business owners, of which I think transparency and honesty are pretty high up there for both of us. And we wouldn't be sitting here today. We wouldn't have just gone to Mexico. We wouldn't have had a podcast together.

    Amy Posner: So what it caused us to do was to look really more closely at our values, like individually and together and, and decide what, what was it that we were trying to bring to life here? Right? Was it, you know, our partnership so we could do something together? Was it to deliver some kind of value, you know, into the marketplace?

    Was it a combination? and how did we both feel about publicly admitting that. Well, or we were embarrassed that we messed up, that we just did something that was kind of stupid and kind of, surprisingly stupid. But I think we also are both confident enough to realize like, okay, you know, we're just people.

    We did something stupid. And we know that people do this particular thing all the time. Like, oh look, we fell into the trap too. and so there's like, there's good intelligence in that, I think, and good and good knowledge. And neither of us were, you know, ashamed or embarrassed of saying, hey, this is how we screwed up.

    This is how we're gonna fix it. Let's see if that's the journey. And I think that really solidified our friendship and our relationship and our partnership because it was like, what kept happening with us is like, I think we, you know, it's like, it was like approaching each other, sort of tentatively and then we'd keep ticking these boxes, right?

    It'd be like, I don't know. Is she gonna go all the way over there? Yep. You're gonna come here? Yep, yep, yep. And it's like everything that we are, the way that we move in the world and the way that we wanna do things just lines up so well that I think it, it, I don't know, is it kind of gives us energy or, or, or something. It propels us, I think. Is that fair to say?

    Kirsty Fanton: Yeah, absolutely. Because I think it's one thing to make this kind of decision on your own, to really publicly own up to what's such an embarrassing mistake. But it's another thing to know that someone else is gonna be there with you and they're fully in it and they're kind of happy to do it.

    Because I think as well for both of us, you know, even at this like the very beginning of us working together, I think there's been that seed that we are both people who want to do business in the way that feels good for us. So that we're bucking the, you know, at the time, probably, probably less so now, I think there's a bit of a trend towards vulnerability shares on social media.

    But, you know, I think at the time, perhaps it was not the done thing to pull back the veneer. And be like, yeah, we messed up. This did not work. So I think there's definitely an energy that comes from finding that you are in partnership with someone who is so willing to do that and to go there, and to just be really vulnerable and honest, I think, you know, with our world.

    Eman Ismail: And how did people react? Not just the people who joined the program, but I mean like people . How did, uh, how did everyone else react to you? Just being so open and honest about this kind of mistake?

    Kirsty Fanton: So well, I actually looked through, cause I still have the post on Instagram, which I'm very happy to share the link if anyone wants it. But, that sort of announces the fact that we absolutely made a mistake and we're gonna go again. We're gonna launch this thing properly because we believe in it.

    And the comments on that post are amazing and they're so supportive and almost, celebrating the fact that we are owning up to the mistake. So yeah, the response was phenomenal. I just felt very like held, which sounds so weird and like so touchy feely for like, you know, emails and Instagram. But I feel like that was the response. So that also helped. I think, you know, just remind both of us probably of, you know, who our people actually are. I dunno if that makes sense.

    Eman Ismail: It does. And actually you gave me the link and I'll put the link in the show notes to the Instagram post where you announced this. But I do just wanna read just a little bit of it, just to really help people, you know, see this whole situation unfolding in their mind. Okay.

    Kirsty says, I'm cringing as I write this, but here we go. Business Badassery, a k a, the Get Ish Done incubator I promoted in my last post, didn't fill up to the point where it was profitable. And that is totally on Amy and me. Really. We thought we'd fill it via invitations we sent out the week before Christmas to people we were already working with and got so caught up in the excitement of that, that we didn't build any sort of funnel for legends like you. So I won't read the whole thing. I was just having a quick look at some of the comments and some of them are just so, they're all just so lovely.

    Belinda Weaver says, who has been on this podcast? I love your point about being too close to a thing that you missed the obvious. A great reminder, other people said, thank you so much for your honesty. Cheers to be inhuman. Kirsty, you and Amy are such inspirations in awe of both your courage and strength to own up to a lesson ideal launch.

    And you are right. This was before vulnerability kind of became a thing. Like we weren't used to people sharing stuff like this. So it really was a big deal. It was. So then what happens after that? You've posted this and, and you've decided that you're gonna give yourself four weeks to relaunch and then go again.

    So what happened the second time round?

    So we put together a webinar with some of the ideas from the program. Ran that, did a proper sales page, had some proper follow up emails, like, you know, like you do in a launch. We created the, you know, the various elements that we needed and we had, we did it in pretty short order, obviously, cuz we needed to turn it around quickly. But we had the content, so it was really just a question of, you know, organizing it and being willing to have egg on our face as,

    Eman Ismail: and

    Kirsty Fanton: I think we filled it up, didn't we? Did we get, or was it 18 people?

    Amy Posner: Yeah. We did.

    Kirsty Fanton: Yeah.

    Amy Posner: Yep.

    Kirsty Fanton: It was a really successful launch. Yeah.

    Eman Ismail: That's amazing.

    Kirsty Fanton: And I think the amazing thing about that for people to hear too was that the offer didn't change at all. There were no tweaks to the offer. It was literally the launch around it.

    Eman Ismail: That's mind blowing. Wow. Wow. The exact same offer. Nothing changed. Two people joined the first time round. You go back to drawing boards, figure out a strategy, launch properly, and you get 18 people inside. That's amazing.

    Kirsty Fanton: Yeah, it felt pretty good.

    Amy Posner: Yeah, we were, we were, we were pretty pleased. It's like, okay, good. We did this. We can do this. There there is, there is fuel here.

    Kirsty Fanton: Yeah. And the program itself was also amazing. You know? I think that's good too. Like we obviously attracted very much the perfect people for the program and yeah. So yeah, not only was it a successful launch, it was a successful program.

    Eman Ismail: I mean, I'm just trying to put myself in that position and I feel like if that had been me, I mean like to think I wouldn't have, but I probably would've just thought, okay, nobody wants this. So how do you, how do you know when it's time to give up or when you just need to just try again? How do you know?

    Amy Posner: I, I don't know that you always do. I think in this instance we really were determined to work together. We really wanted to do this thing, and we, and I think we believed in it. I don't think we did. I know we did, but I think, I, I say I think because we hadn't done it yet, right. So you, you know, you put it together with the, you know, ideal people are gonna get certain results.

    And I think. I don't know. I, and I suspect this, I'm gonna say this for me, and I suspect there's some of this is true for you too, Kirsty. I don't like to lose, you know, I like to figure things out. It's like, I felt like this was good and like it, it deserved a life in the world. And damn it, we were gonna see if we could like, bring it to life and, and look at the fact that it was, you know, that it was still, it was still good and it just, and it had value.

    Amy Posner: But, you know, if people don't know something has value, they don't buy it. Which is like, you know, sort of like the bottom like rock bottom philosophy of what we all do and create for clients. and so maybe there was that too, like a little vindication. Like, okay, we gotta, we gotta do this, right? We gotta prove to ourselves that we, you know, we, we don't just do this for clients, we can do it for us too.

    Eman Ismail: So, I mean, it sounds like it went amazingly the second time around, but as far as I know, and correct me if I'm wrong, you haven't launched it again since, right? So what was like the decision making process around not doing it again since it was so successful?

    Kirsty Fanton: Yes. Such a good question. So we haven't run it again. And I think the thing was, it was really successful for the people in it, for us as facilitators of that space, it wasn't a profitable offer. And we, I think I, I think we only realized why that was like the week before we went to Mexico, because Amy made this comment when we were planning, she was like, you know, we only each have to be 50% for this Mexico retreat.

    And that is, we did not do that for the online program. We were both giving a hundred percent, which meant that, just in a pure business sense, you know, we each could have made the same amount of profit that we made from that program. Just doing our individual programs. Me doing a round of brain camp and Amy doing whatever you were doing at that point in time, maybe it was a copy clinic, I can't remember. So that's why we haven't offered it again. So even though the people inside got a lot out of it, and you know, the feedback was phenomenal, we made the call that it wasn't a good fit for us in terms of profitability.

    Eman Ismail: See. I love that because I feel like so many business owners don't have the ability to do that, to let go of something that is successful and that is working because it doesn't, it's not serving you. That's really powerful.

    Amy Posner: Yeah. It's a tough call to make too.

    Eman Ismail: Yeah. I can imagine. Did anyone else, did anyone ask for it afterwards? I imagine some people were like, well, when are you gonna bring that thing back? When, when are you gonna do that program again?

    Kirsty Fanton: Yeah, definitely. Yep, yep.

    It was a one off . We launched it twice and offered it once.

    Eman Ismail: Well, they had two chances to join, so is it their fault really?

    Amy Posner: That's right. It was out there for a while. Really.

    Eman Ismail: Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. I feel like this is the most I've laughed at, on a podcast interview. Okay, so after the program, you, you, you ran it one time and you now have a podcast. You've done the retreat. Like it's all, so many other things have come from this, from that one experience. So what was it that kind of led you to start, I guess, experimenting and trying different things? Was that always the plan that you were just, that you're gonna try loads of different things?

    Kirsty Fanton: No, I don't think it was always the plan. No. I, I mean, for me, and, and I don't know, Amy, we haven't actually spoken about this, so maybe you have a different take, but I feel like it was almost like Business Badassery, the group coaching program was a test for both of us in terms of how do we actually work together.

    And obviously financially that didn't, that wasn't a value add necessarily for either of us, that program. But I think, you know, getting to know each other and getting to work with each other obviously was a value add because we did wanna find a way to continue to have that opportunity. I think the podcast came about because as Amy said, I was reluctant to do much else at that point in time, which is quite funny.

    And I think the retreat came about, like Amy said, partly because we wanted to see each other in person again. And it was the first time we've worked together in person as well, which was phenomenal. And also partly because we wanted to see if this was something that we could actually, you know, offer again in future.

    Kirsty Fanton: So I think it's more just an evolution of sort of a deeper sense of knowing each other, a deeper understanding of how we work together. And then a deeper understanding too of who we wanna serve and how we wanna do that and working out. Okay, well what shape fits that now?

    Is that how you feel about Amy? Because I might have, you might have a totally different take.

    Amy Posner: No, I, I very, very much the same. And I remember specifically with the podcast, I mean, you know, we said earlier in the episode, like, it, it needed, there needed to be some ease and it needed to be fun for us. But as you've probably heard through various things we've said, we also both like to be profitable, right?

    We're not, you know, we don't like to just do things for fun in business anyway. And, but we never, we have not monetized the pod really yet. I mean, we have a, in a sort of very back doorway. But that was something that we were both okay with. It was like, okay, let's just do this and we'll build, you know, this sort of reputation or brand or whatever it is together as us. And then, you know, someday it'll serve us or it won't. I mean, in other words, we'll either expand on that and we'll have built something, a reputation that we can now, build something on or, you know, or we will have had fun and maybe delivered some value. And that's cool too. so I don't, there was never, there was never a particular plan. And I think, and it's just funny Kirsty to hear you say like, oh, that, that, like, that Kirsty wouldn't have done that. I mean, things have changed just so radically, like in your life and in the world and in both of our lives, in our offers. So it's just, I don't know. I mean, the fact that we came back around to where we are now was not planned, but it's brilliant in my view. Not sure where it's going now either next, but we're, we're talking.

    Eman Ismail: Ah, damn. You hit on my next question, Amy, which was, can you share any plans for the future? Have you spoken about the future, what might happen?

    So like Amy said, we don't have any real concrete ideas. I think it's very safe to say that we will offer some more in-person retreats again. Um, ,We kind of had this, well, I was laughing when you said that earlier because we have this vague plan of like, I mean the place we're in in Mexico was amazing. So maybe we go there like every third year, then we have one in Australia and then one in Europe, and we just repeat that pattern.

    Kirsty Fanton: it's possible

    Eman Ismail: can live with that

    And beyond that, I mean we also, we have some other ideas that aren't, I don't think they're formed enough yet to talk about them with any sort of useful words. So maybe we'll leave that. But I guess just to say that we are definitely planning on continuing to work together. And something beyond the podcast.

    Eman Ismail: Oh, exciting. Keep it to us. Um, on our toes, Kirsty.

    Amy Posner: Yeah, it's exciting for us too. I mean, we're just, I was, it's exciting for us too, and we're just starting to think about that, and particularly having been at the retreat, it'll be interesting for us to get feedback and see, you know, what, what do, what do other people see, you know, as the value of us together.

    And we got some sense of that. And I think we created something that really works, but it'll, it'll be interesting to sort of dig into that and see what, you know, what threads we can pull and where we might wanna go to, I don't know, to sort of, sort of keep doing that because you know, it feels great, it really works and when it really works and feels great, it's like I want more of that.

    Eman Ismail: Mm-hmm. . Okay. I have to ask, because it sounds like you work so well together. Is there anything that is difficult? Is there any part of this, like working with someone else that's hard?

    Amy Posner: International payments really suck.

    Kirsty Fanton: Mm. I was gonna say, it's just logistics. I think like, you know, because I'm an Australian name. Even the states have different tax laws and setting up that kind of stuff, that's really hard. But like in terms of us working together and doing the actual work, like, I'm gonna sound so annoying, but no and like Amy, you're like, oh no, there's like, let me start my list.

    Amy Posner: There's this thing that Kirsty does that drives me crazy and I've been waiting to err in public. No, there's really, I mean, this is the thing. It's like we really, and I just, I get such a kick out of this, we just really see eye to eye. I mean, so we have, it's not like one of us is ever going so far, you know, in one direction, the other one's like, like where did this come from? But it also means that we can collaborate really well. And I think we've gotten pretty good at that. We both, we're both very fast and we're both, I don't know, we have a similar style and neither of us gets too hung up on much, I think. And like what, you know, neither of us is particularly perfectionist or worried. And I think there's a lot of, we've developed a lot of trust too because we've, we've had the, you know, the experience of being very careful. I'm like, could I do this? And would this be okay? And will you, and you know, and, and every time it's like, yeah, of course, of course, of course, of course, of course. So we've just like expanded sort of this, I don't know, this, this sort of trust that serves us really well.

    Kirsty Fanton: And I would say

    I know that Amy keeps saying we see eye to eye and we do, but I also wanna add that it's not like we're not both coming with the same ideas. So it's also an expansion of, you know, there's definitely, like Amy said, the third mind, but it's, we feel trusting and safe enough to be like, hey, here's this weird thing I've been thinking about. Like, what do you think about this? And then we can sort of come to that together. And we always seem to end up in the same place. So it's still, there's definitely still open discussion and, you know, often one of us will ask, I will be like, come on, like, we're not gonna do that. No. And that's, and then we laugh, like, you know, so it's not like we're just like this lovely agreeable, like, you know, hive mine that just thinks the same things over and over. It's just, there's also some expansiveness in there, which I think is really important for a partnership to work. That's all.

    Amy Posner: I was just gonna say, I think because of that, and I think that's like a thing that you either have or you don't. I don't know, maybe it can be developed, but I think because of that synergy, it allows you to do bigger things because we're not, you know, I've, I've worked with other people where you're hung up on a lot of the logistics sort.

    Are you gonna agree or who's gonna do that? Or will they, you know, like all those things that just seemed to have not gotten in our way.

    Eman Ismail: I feel like you two are the right people to ask because I mean, it sounds like you have a great experience working together. Me and a friend of mine are considering doing something together. Do you have any tips or advice for us in terms of making it work? Like making a partnership, you know, go smoothly and just, just work well?

    Kirsty Fanton: I think it's really important. Maybe I'd have two. Two, like tidbits for you. I think just be as open as possible from the get-go, because holding something back or being polite. it might, you know, help you circumvent a more meaty conversation at that point in time, but it's not gonna serve long term at all. So I think from the get go, be as open and honest as you can.

    And I would also say, I think like any good partnership, whether it is a business partnership or whether you are, you know, hiring a new employee, whatever that might be, I think thinking through in terms of if there's any possibility of like a trial period is a good thing too.

    So like for Amy and I, you know, we didn't have any plans beyond Business Badassery. When we first decided to work together, it was like, let's do this thing together. Because I think then once you are in the thick of doing the thing, if you then realize, ugh, this is actually feeling quite laborious and heavy and maybe we're not actually as, you know, well-matched as partners as I thought we might be, then you have an, an easier out or an, or a good point of reflection and refinement if nothing else.

    Eman Ismail: I like that. I like that. So don't tie yourself down for years.

    Kirsty Fanton: Yes.

    Amy Posner: Mm-hmm.

    I think it's also good to anticipate, I, I think it's good to anticipate what might come up or like where, you know, your sticky points are right? Like if, like if you have a sticky point with time or money or like, I, like, I can't, I can't abide people who don't do what they say they're gonna do. As an example, you know, if I found out that that was true of Kirsty, it just wouldn't be worth it to me because I'd be aggravated all the time.

    So like, just, and I think it's worth bringing up these little peccadillos and like, like, how do you feel about that? Especially if it's like, you know, if it's your weak spot or if, if it's, yeah, and, and, and particularly I think it's, there's, there's ego and there's money, right? Those are, those are the, the two things that, that you have to be aware of. And so like what are, what are your, you know, what kinds of things trip you up and just talk about 'em. and then I know, I guess I think the money part, you get a, you know, you get a sense of as you go, like, you know, as long as you can trust somebody. For me it's okay for people to do things their own way.

    But yeah.

    Eman Ismail: Oh, amazing. Thank you. Okay. I'm gonna, well, I won't give anything away, but we had, we'd been talking about this for like five, six months and we said we'd, we'd think about it and then come back to it in like quarter one of, of 2023. So we've given ourselves time to really think about whether this is what we wanna do. Because I feel like we started our businesses because we liked our independence. So, I don't know. It's gonna be interesting. Like it feels a little bit scary to let go of some of that, like independence, like you said, I'm a, I'm a lone wolf as well, so I think maybe that's what's a bit a bit scary.

    Kirsty Fanton: Yes. Yes. Well, I think too, like, because you're a lone wolf, like both of us, like the partnership will have to be really bloody good for it to work for both of you. Which is good, right? Because if it does work, it's gonna be amazing. and I'm so intrigued about what this is.

    Eman Ismail: I'll tell you when we get off recording, but I just can't tell the whole world right now because I can't put that kind of pressure on me. But as soon as we stop recording, I'll tell you.

    So I mean, this has been such an interesting conversation and I think as well, it's so good to know that even experts in this very field make mistakes. Like, you know, it's, I was really hard on myself, just a couple of days ago because I was in the middle of my launch and made a silly mistake with things like emails and segmentation and tags and all that nonsense. And I was really, you know, hard on myself and I was just like, why? Why? You know, why did you do this? Your literal email is your thing. Forgetting that, you know, the technical side of email is actually not my thing. Like I don't enjoy all the tax and the segmentation and all that stuff. So it's really helpful for me listening to know that, you know, what happens, we make mistakes. Just don't, don't give up doesn't mean that, you know, everything was wrong. It might have just been like that one small piece that needed kind of in and in your case it was just, it was a strategy and then it was, and then it was done. So, good to know. Okay, let me move on to my final question.

    Eman Ismail: What do you want others to learn from your experience?

    Uh, there's a few things that are popping up for me. One is, one is the, is the go slow. You know, I, I, as, as I've been listening to us and I'm thinking, you know, I think pacing yourself, when you make business decisions, but also. Like, hmm, being willing to take a risk, but kind of, you know, just harking back to what Kirsty just said, like, what, but within parameters, right? Within limits. Like you do, you try something for you, you try something experimentally or you try something for a certain period of time. And I also think that it's really quite common to make the kind of mistake that we made even in something that you're expert at. And I think it's really important to not let that shatter or shake your confidence in your ability or your knowledge, but just realize that sometimes, well, we all make mistakes. I mean, that's just, you know, that's just what happens. But that 's it, it is okay to make those mistakes as long as you own what you, what you're doing. you know, I think it's, yeah, I think that's perfectly. a perfectly fine way to move in the world.

    Amy Posner: So I think, and, and I, I'll just let me, I'll just put a little extra piece on that because I think too many of us, you know, like someone doesn't like something or it doesn't work, or it's not, you know, someone comments and like suddenly like, you know, your whole self-identity crashes, like, oh, I'm not as good as I thought I was, or, I can't do this. Um, It's really easy to let that outside influence impact what you do. And I think it's just not always relevant.

    So I think to just like, kind of keep your core, you know, stick to your ideas. Believe, defend, defend what you do, believe in what you do, put stuff out that you believe in and, and stand behind it and like know that you're gonna inevitably screw up and that's okay.

    Eman Ismail: Mm-hmm. Thank you. And Kirsty, what about you?

    So yes to all of those things. And I feel like I wanna add two more. I feel like one is don't be afraid to own your mistakes. And that's such a big part of why I love this podcast. Cause I just feel like it's such a good conversation to have and I love that it's permission for, you know, all of us to stop pretending we are perfect and we only ever do good, correct things. I feel like, you know, if you are open to it, there's such a value that can come from just owning things that are transparent and not in a way like, that there has to always be a happy ending attached to the end of it. Like when I put that post on Instagram, I didn't know if the second launch was gonna work, it might have flopped as well.

    Kirsty Fanton: And then, you know, jokes on me again, I guess. But I think also within that, like, sort of what Amy said, I think, you know, it's such a skill to be able to tune out all the noise. And I think for us, if we hadn't done that, it would've been easy to just abandon that project. But because we both were able to tune into why we had created that offer and the value that we really believed it had, it made the other decisions a lot easier.

    And I think a lot of that noise too can be our own self-doubt. So like you said, you know, you made that mistake with your segmentation or your tagging yesterday and straight away you went to the like, , you know, oh, like you're such an idiot. Why'd you do that? And I think a lot of that is noise too. So I've been able to, Really work out what is noise and what is true for you. And I think the more you're able to do that, you know, the easier it is to find the path, in this crazy world of business.

    Eman Ismail: Mm-hmm. One of the things that just really jumps out at me from this whole conversation is the fact that you were both so open and honest about this. And again, we spoke about the fact that that wasn't really the done thing back then, so it was, you know, it was a big deal. Today, however, I feel like openness, and I wanna say vulnerability to an extent is almost used as a marketing tool, right? To sell to. It's like I'm being vulnerable. Like me, buy from me. I don't know. You know, it just, it doesn't feel genuine anymore. It doesn't feel sincere. So how do we, how do we still share what's going on? How do we share our mistakes publicly? And it just still is sincere and it feels sincere, you know?

    Kirsty Fanton: Mm-hmm. . So I think a lot of that is to me, the answer of the question of who is this for? Because I think for a lot of those people who are at the moment, almost like weaponizing vulnerability as a marketing tool, like the vulnerability isn't, isn't for the audience, it's for them. It's for them to make more money for some more things.

    Whereas like in this example, I think the reason we were vulnerable and open is to let people know what was going on because we'd publicly tried to launch this thing. So it's, you know, just being honest with our audience, like, hey, you would've seen us promote this thing in the last week, you know, it didn't work. So I think for me, that is sort of how you answer that question.

    Eman Ismail: Okay. I love that.

    Amy Posner: Yeah, and it feels a little bit like, it, it's like, is it vulnerability as manipulation as and as a tactic, or is it vulnerability in sharing something for, for a reason that isn't manipulative, that isn't trying to get something from you. And I, I, I mean, I can't say a hundred percent, but I feel like almost a hundred percent you can tell the difference instantly, right? When somebody's telling you something real or somebody's telling you something because they're trying to like, you get to feel something in order to buy into something. It doesn't feel at all sincere. It feels very, you know, it, it, it feels like that marketing that we all hate, you know, that in your face. It's just a different way of doing it and I, you know.

    Eman Ismail: Absolutely.

    Amy Posner: what's real works, and it doesn't matter if it's about telling the truth or about being vulnerable. I mean, you know, people's, people's bullshit meter is pretty well refined. They know what they're looking at.

    Eman Ismail: Yeah. And actually it was Kirsty that taught me this in brain camp that, I mean, I felt this right, but I could never, I felt this, but I could never communicate it and I could never verbalize it. And you, you verbalized it inside Brain Camp, you said, you know, when people overshare, it actually can have the opposite effect. It can actually make you not trust them and make them really distrustful of them. Because like Amy said, you can sense it immediately.

    And so this whole new age is just like trauma dumping on people, like I open LinkedIn and I'm traumatized at night, like genuinely traumatized at 9:00 AM because someone has like trauma dumped their entire life. I wasn't ready for this at 9:00 AM on LinkedIn. You know, it's a lot. And it can actually have the complete opposite effect. So when I, when you taught me that Kirsty, I was like, boom. Mind blown. That's exactly what it is. So it's really interesting trying to find that level of like, yes, we're people and we're business owners and we like to tell stories and we like to share what's going on, but also there's a line and we have to try and figure out where that line is.

    It's fascinating stuff.

    Kirsty Fanton: It is, it really is.

    Eman Ismail: Well, thank you so much, both of you for coming on the show. I'm so excited you both came and I, I couldn't decide whether I knew that I wanted both of you, but I was like, do I have them individually or do I get them on here together? And I was like, no, no, no. Definitely together. So I'm glad that we did it this way.

    Thank you so much for being here. Can you tell everyone listening where they can find you if they want to stay connected?

    Kirsty Fanton: Yeah, of course. So if you go to businessbadass.co/podcast, you'll find all of our podcast episodes there as well as a submission form. So, as we mentioned, the podcast is about an Agony Aunt. So if you have something that you're stuck on or a question or a conundrum, that you want, I guess our coaching on via podcast episode, you can actually submit that question or conundrum there.

    You can also find us on iTunes and Spotify, and of course, individually I'm at kirstyfanton.com or @kirsty.fanton on Instagram.

    Amy Posner: And I'm at amyposner.com and @AmyRPosner on Instagram where you'll never find me, but you can, but you can find me.

    Eman Ismail: Can I just say the podcast is fantastic, so go and listen to it. And Amy, your quote, the copy YouTube channel is brilliant as well so people go listen to Amy as well on, on YouTube because that series is fantastic.

    I'll put all the links in the show notes so everyone can find you.

    Amy Posner: Super. Yeah. Easy.

    Eman Ismail: Okay, well thank you both so much for being here.

    Eman Ismail: I've had launch flops, but I have never publicly gone out of my way to tell everyone about it. One of the many things that amazed me in this conversation was the honesty and openness. Amy and Kirsty demonstrated when they shared their launch mistake with the world. They were so confident in their abilities as business owners that they didn't let this one, okay, kind of major mistake derail their entire launch or their new business partnership. Instead, their reaction was proportionate. They admitted they'd made a mistake that they could have done things better. Then they gave themselves time to a regroup to identify their mistake so they could avoid making the same one again.

    And then they came up with an action plan that would lead them to launch success. They gave themselves grace. They were compassionate to themselves, and they understood that this one bad experience didn't mean that together business was over.

    It makes me think about how our own reaction to an event is actually the determining factor in what happens next. Business is hard. If it was easy, everyone would have one. Mistakes are inevitable. The question is, how are you going to react when you make yours? You're gonna give up? Or are you gonna find a way to get it together and keep it moving? Just like Amy and Kirsty did.

    You're listening to Mistakes That Made Me. I'm Eman Ismail, and if you loved this episode, take a screenshot, post it on Instagram and tell everyone you know that this is the podcast to listen to. And tag me @EmanCopyCo so we can say hi. And so I can share your post. You can find the links to everything I've mentioned today in the show notes.

    Next time on Mistakes That Made Me.

    Jason Zook: We all run into this where it's so, it's so gratifying to make new things. Mm-hmm. like, you get the excitement, you have the idea, you're going through all your tasks list, you're using your productivity tools, and then this, this shiny thing exists that didn't exist before, and you put your heart and your soul and your branding and everything into it. But then who's gonna buy it? Because all you've done is spend time making things. And now people don't know that it exists.

    Caroline Zook: They don't know why they should care. They don't know what problem it solves. Yeah, you're, you just sort of emerge from this creation cave and you're like, look at this new thing. And everyone's like, cool, but how does it help me?

    Jason Zook: Haven't heard from you for two years, haven't heard from you. You know, like you've just been in a cave. 

Eman Ismail
Previous

Episode #11: Falling Prey to New Ideas
Next

Episode #9: Playing the “Nice Black Girl”