Episode #33: “Chasing a million-dollar business I didn’t want (and putting revenue before profit)”
In this episode, I speak to Cindy Wagman – a consultant for nonprofit consultants – about shutting down her $650K a year agency to restart her solo business.
Cindy shares how her vision of success changed over time and why she ultimately decided to close her thriving agency.
She shares insights on defining personal success, making difficult decisions, and integrating values into business operations.
Our convo highlights the importance of creating a life-centric business model and the challenges and rewards of staying true to your goals.
Listen to the Episode
Links from this episode:
Take Eman’s “What’s Your Perfect Newsletter Style?” quiz: https://www.emancopyco.com/quiz
Check out Cindy’s websites: https://cindywagman.com/ and https://www.fractionalfundraising.co/
Connect with Cindy on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cindywagman/
If you loved this episode, take a screenshot, post it on Instagram, and tell everyone you know that this is the podcast to listen to. Don’t forget to tag me! @emancopyco.
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Eman Ismail: I never wanted to build an agency. I think I might have even said it on this podcast at one point. I think I publicly said I will never turn my solo business into an agency. I read Paul Jarvis's book, Company of One, and I was adamant that I would be a company of one forever.
And then 2024 came along and well, here we are.
I just launched my email micro agency. This is a great example of how our definition of business success can change. What success means to me is going to be different to what success means to you. In fact, what success means to me. in 2018 is going to be different to what success means to me in 2024 or 2025.
Your version and vision of success can change. That's exactly what happened to Cindy Wagman, the consultant for fundraising consultants. Cindy had built a successful agency. Her agency was making 650k a year in revenue when the pandemic hit and she changed her mind about what she wanted. So she shut down her agency and transitioned back into solo preneurship.
This year, her solo business is on track to make $425K, about. So her revenue is down from $650K, but her take home pay has gone up. Cindy changed the way she measured success and decided to put her take home pay ahead of her revenue. Now she gets to do things like go on two week trips to Greece with her family and book a two week trip to Japan with her kids.
This is a great convo. Let's chat to Cindy about how she built her agency, only to shut it down and rebuild a solo business all over again, simply because her definition of success changed.
Cindy Wagman: I thought that if I wanted to build something bigger. That's what it looked like, right? Like I just didn't feel like I had any other model of
Eman Ismail: Secret option C. You didn't have a secret option C. Yeah.
Cindy Wagman: okay, like that's the next thing. That is, it really feels like a vortex. Like you just get pulled along of this is what success looks like.
This is your natural next step. You just keep hiring. You keep building this. Maybe you add some benefits, but I just really didn't see any other option
Eman Ismail: On today's show. I'm speaking to Cindy Wagman, the consultant for nonprofit consultants, best selling author and co host of confessions with Jess and Cindy about how chasing a version of success that wasn't hers led to the decision that she would shut down her $650 K a year agency and start all over again as a solo business owner.
Cindy Wagman: So one of the things that I've also spent time thinking about is like, what am I measuring? Right. It's that idea. Like everyone wants the million dollar business, right? Seven figures, seven figures, seven figures. Well, like, I don't want to make the same as I'm making before and have a million dollar business where I'm just I'm more stressed about paying for everyone else, right? So, for me, a big thing is like, what am I paying myself, as one of the key metrics of what success looks like for me, not top line revenue, but really my salary and profit.
Eman Ismail: Welcome to Mistakes That Made Me the podcast that asks extraordinary business owners to share their biggest business mistake so you know what not to do on your road to success. Mistakes That Made Me is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name's Eman Ismail and I'm an email strategist and copywriter for online business owners like you at Emancopyco.Com, I'm a podcast lover, a pizza binger, a proud mama of two, and I have this radical idea that if maybe us business owners were a little less guarded and a lot more open about the mistakes we've made, we could help each other grow a business that brings us more joy and less regret.
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Cindy Wagman: So my name is Cindy Wagman and I like to call myself a consultant's consultant. So I help non profit consultants, so these are business owners who serve non profits as their clients, and I help them build profitable and impactful businesses.
Eman Ismail: Okay. So you started off and still are in the charity sector.
Cindy Wagman: Yes.
Eman Ismail: I also used,
Cindy Wagman: I know, I love that.
Eman Ismail: I also used to work in the charity sector. I came from the charity sector.It's, it's a challenging industry, especially I think because when you go into it, you go into it because you have such big dreams about changing whatever it is that you're passionate about and making a real impact.
And then you find yourself kind of in a position where often you don't have the resources to make the impact that you wanted to. And it's like, Oh, it's a real like wake up call.
Cindy Wagman: It really is. And there's so much self sacrifice and martyrdom in the sector. And that also is tied to scarcity mindset. And so it really is challenging to be an ambitious person working in the sector. And also the sector doesn't look great. It kind of looks down on ambition generally. Like we should all be doing this work for the good of everything else.
And it's like, well, no, I also want things for me and I don't want to be ashamed of having my own professional goals and, you know, wanting to, back in the day, I wanted to be an executive director. I wanted to lead an organization and I didn't want to feel bad about wanting that. So, yeah, there's a lot of mindset stuff that gets, you know, Reinforced and sort of brewed in the non profit and charity sector that isn't so healthy.
Eman Ismail: Okay. So that was my exact experience. But what is fascinating for me is to hear you say that. And I thought I had that experience because I was actually working, in the faith based kind of charity sector. And so it was a very much like. The rhetoric was very much, this is God's work.
Cindy Wagman: Mm.
Eman Ismail: You never stop doing God's work, you don't give yourself a break from God's work.
What is a break? You will work all day, evenings and weekends, you won't get any overtime and if you ask for overtime you're like greedy and selfish and oh wait now you're looking for another job. Because what? Now you want to move away from God's work? Now you want to, like, what could possibly be better than this?
And actually it was, it was really, really difficult because I had to, almost have like a, it was almost a spiritual journey in itself for me to understand, like, what does all of this mean for me? What do I feel like God wants from me? And I came to the conclusion that working in the charity sector wasn't the only way for me to be charitable.
Cindy Wagman: Yes.
Eman Ismail: And that charity work and charity would never stop being important to me. And I could continue doing that whilst also doing work that I was more passionate about and that I would make more money from, and that I could probably make more impact, charity wise. It's making more money doing something else, where also, yeah, I was sorry.
I was just going to say also for me, it was a difficult conversation as well because it was taking me away from my child and when I was working all those hours and I remember thinking like we're talking about what God wants. I think God wants me to be a good mom. Like I think I think that's what he wants and for me to be a good mom I need to see my son more than i'm seeing him and so He is my priority and I think that's what God wants from me.
And so that was the decision I made and it was so difficult, but I didn't realize that that experience exists outside of the faith kind of based charity sector.
Cindy Wagman: It really does. So I have a story when I, my first job. So I've always been a fundraiser. Like when I was in university, I actually wrote a thesis on feminist fundraising. I'm that nerdy. So my first job out of university, I was the, The first and only hired fundraiser at a very small women's shelter in the Northwest part of Toronto.
And it was my first, we were hosting a big fundraising event. We had this event annually. I think it was my first or second year with the event. And while we were setting up, I stepped on the side of my foot and Broke it. I didn't know it was broken until I went to the hospital, and so someone from the volunteer committee drove me to the hospital, basically dropped me off in one of the wheel hospital wheelchairs, which by the way, you can't operate.
They have a lock that someone has to unlock from behind you. So I was like. In tears, in the waiting room, not being able to move around on my own, and so, just, it was so lonely. And I went in, I got my x rays, I got the temporary cast on. And I went back to the event. Eman, I worked that event that night because I thought I was doing like the heroic thing. Like literally with a broken bone.
and
Eman Ismail: And I bet, I bet everyone was like, Oh, you're so, look at this commitment. Oh, you're amazing. Instead of like, please go home and just take care of yourself. Like that's the correct answer.
Cindy Wagman: And like, I was so proud of myself for my dedication and work ethic. And I used to tell that story as a badge of honor. And now I've learned to look back and say, no, that is a problem. That is a problem with our sector. It's not just faith based. It is so prevalent across the board. And to your point before, oftentimes, we can have a, well, bottom line, we can have a better and bigger impact the better the sector is resourced, right? So that means hiring good staff and paying them well. That means raising more money. That means all of the things that we feel like we have to sacrifice or do without are actually the path to having a bigger impact. So it's really contradictory and very, very exploitative of people and very problematic. But I still love the sector. I just want to change it from the inside.
Eman Ismail: Yeah, no, I totally agree. And it's, it's really important work and it's good work. And I'm glad there are people who are able to stick it out because I couldn't, I couldn't do it. but it's interesting because Rachel Rogers talks about this in her book. We shall be millionaires. She talks about the fact that when, when women, are wealthy society reaps the benefits of a woman's wealth. We are much bigger givers statistically than men, from other, just off in our family and then our wide, the wider community and wider society as well. And that was, that was really eyeopening for me.
Cindy Wagman: Yeah. And in so many ways, right. I've, I've seen actually a friend of mine, Camilla Martin posted on LinkedIn a while ago, but it, it stuck with me this, she said like her small business, and this is what I love about working with entrepreneurs now or business owners is because it is this sort of, Double impact where not only do they serve charities and nonprofits, but their, suppliers and staff.
And as a business, we also have an impact. Most of the people I know and work with, they are making. Business decisions as well, based on the impact they want to have. And so they're, investing or hiring other women or working with companies that have values that are aligned to theirs. So all of this, a ripple effect, both running your business as well as working with charities.
Eman Ismail: Yes. No, I totally agree. So what took you out of working for the charity or charities that you were working for?
Cindy Wagman: Yeah. So I kind of stumbled into consulting. I was actually, this is funny cause it kind of relates back to what you were talking about with being a parent. I was on mat leave. I'm in Canada, so we have pretty good mat leaves. We get a year off. I was on mat leave with my second. Sun and my mentor and I had coffee and she approached me about a job with an organization.
It was a really cool organization. At the time I was the director of development, which is basically like one of the top fundraisers or head fundraisers at the business school in Toronto, not the business school. There are multiple business schools, but, one of the, one of the big business schools in Toronto.
And. She. Approached me about this job. And I was like, I don't know if I'm really looking to leave. And she coached me through something that I'd never experienced, which was asking for exactly what I wanted. Like I was in a position where I could say no very comfortably. I was happy in my job.
Although I looked back and I was like, was I actually that happy? But at the time I felt like I was. And. She said, just ask, ask for what you want. Like, why don't you take this on as a consultant and ask for this much money and this many hours and see what they say. And they said, yes. Right. They, I asked for three days a week as a consultant doing the work and I named my price and.
They agreed to it. So I kind of fell into consulting and I took a few months just working that kind of part time, because again, my kids were really little. and from there I just decided, okay, I'm going to grow a business. I'm going to figure this consulting thing out. So that's kind of how I went into consulting.
And then I switched just a couple years ago because at that point I was working with charities and I was building a team that was working with charities. And then around 2002 I started to switch and move to working with consultants who work with charities. So now I actually do not work directly with any organization.
Eman Ismail: were talking about 2002. So how long have you been in business?
Cindy Wagman: Since 2015.
Eman Ismail: 2015. Okay. Wow.
So I know we're going to talk about this in a little bit, but you had an agency where you had a bunch of full time employees, You're on a full on super successful agency. As you know, I just, launched my micro agency and I would love to know what is your biggest piece of advice for me in terms of making sure. this works. Like just what's your biggest piece of advice.
Okay, so my biggest piece of advice is no one's gonna care about your business as much as you do, so you gotta treat them exceptionally well. It's insane that you just said that because I was having this conversation today, I was talking to someone who is in a traditional nine to five and we're having a conversation about their boss and. And I, said, Oh, this boss has a problem because they're expecting everyone else to care about their company as much as they do.
And there's no reason for everybody else to care as
Cindy Wagman: No one does, yeah.
Eman Ismail: Like, why would they?
Cindy Wagman: Yeah, and so, you can give, like, To me so much, I, there's a lot of reasons for this, but I was so focused on creating a really great work culture. And A lot of the things I talked about that were really toxic and problematic about working in the charity sector. I wanted to strategically, create a different reality for the people on my team.
And so, you know, everything from paying them more than they would get in house, like within charities to staff retreats and spa days and bonuses and all of those things were really important to me because I, you can't ever make someone else care about your business just to care about the business.
You have to create buy in and ownership and also recognize that they're just never gonna work at five o'clock in the morning like I used to work, right? Like they are, I wanted them to have boundaries. I wanted to create an environment where they just really wanted to show up and be there and do the best that they could within you.
Those boundaries. Yeah,
Eman Ismail: the marketing concept, what's in it for me. because realistically, that's what all employees, people who work with you, what for you think, like what's in it for me, you have to give them a reason to be loyal to you and your company. and I don't mean loyal as in I can never work for anyone else, but I mean, like to have exactly what you said, that like feeling of, ownership, like I, I care about this.
so it's really great that you said that. I do try really hard to treat people really well, especially the people that I work with. I remember one of the most nightmare clients I ever had was someone who was super rude to my then assistant. And, at that point we'd already signed everything, we'd taken all the money, dah, dah, and everything.
That was a really huge red flag for me, and I didn't know what to do about it. And it's easy for me to say now that I should have, I should have refunded her and I should have whatever
Cindy Wagman: it's so hard.
Eman Ismail: yeah, I was so new to business back then as well. that it's really, it takes a, lot of confidence to do something like that.
but I did say to my assistant. I, you don't need to speak to her ever again. Like you don't, you don't need to be put in that position. and so things like that, like now I'm very clear from the very beginning. I've already said to my assistant,if anyone's ever rude to you, yeah, I don't want to work with them.
So just let me know. it's as simple as that. Just, yeah, be treating people how I would want to be treated.
Cindy Wagman: Mm hmm. Yeah,
Eman Ismail: So it's really, it's as simple as that,
Cindy Wagman: it's so simple and it is but it's simple but hard. I mean to your point,
Eman Ismail: easy.
Cindy Wagman: I did have a client as well who was Not so directly rude, but did some things that made one of my team members feel really bad. And they were going through a really hard time in life, and the client didn't know, but she just overstepped. And I did fire her. But it was, she like didn't want to be fired and I ended up agreeing to like, slowly, like I did the same thing as you, I said, okay, you know, my team member, you don't have to work on this client anymore.
You nothing to do with them. And then it took like three or four months to actually wind the client down. And there's so many reasons. I mean, Yeah. There have been times where I've been like, Oh, but the money and, you know, I have payroll and all that kind of stuff. It's hard. I don't want to undermine or underestimate for people how challenging those decisions can feel.
Even though we know what the right thing to do is in our gut, it is always harder to implement. And for me, one of the hard parts was like, this person. Really? Like it was my conversation with her. That was hard of like me putting up the boundaries and holding her accountable, as a client. Like, it's just really, even if you make the quote unquote right decision, implementing that decision has another layer of toughness where you're in relationship with people and you have to navigate their responses and feedback.
And it's not always just like. Okay. They, they might, she pushed back.
Eman Ismail: you know what's funny? This reminds me of when I used to, like, be in jobs. Don't get me wrong, that was very hard work, but there were some things where I was just like, I don't get paid enough to deal with this. I literally, I don't get paid enough to deal with this, so I'm gonna, this goes straight to the top, the person in charge.
And it's really funny because now I'm the person in charge . when things come up, I'm like, yeah, they don't get paid enough to deal with this. This is my thing. this is what being a leader is. It's doing the hard things that no one else wants to do, that even you don't wanna do, you, you don't wanna do it.
Cindy Wagman: And no one else should do that. And it definitely. It's again, it's hard. It's really hard. There are decisions that I've made about my business that I think are the hardest parts of, of running it.harder than finding clients, harder than all the other things, harder than sales, because I know people don't like sales, but, it's those decisions to me around values and how we operationalize.
Values that, are hard because not all, not everyone does them.
Eman Ismail: Mm, operationalized values. I love that. So do you mean. basically how our values show up in our business.
Cindy Wagman: Yeah. So everything from firing clients who are rude to our team to I've turned down speaking opportunities, which I love and are often good for business. If there's misalignment. So one of the things are the nonprofit sector, I think this is true of everywhere, has a real problem with diversity and in particular representation when it comes to speaking at conferences.
And so oftentimes I will, ask before I accept speaking engagements, what they're doing. And sometimes they're just not doing enough. And I've turned down. Actually one conference that I was like perfectly aligned to me and my business and who I wanted to be in front of and I had to say no. so those are, there's little things.
I also, I used to have, I have a podcast now, but I had another podcast before and I had a really big partner on the podcast. Like I produced it in partnership with this company called Charity village. They're in Canada. And to, for context, when we started, I probably had like 500 people on my email list and they had like 80, 000.
Okay? They're huge and I was able to do this with them and our podcast was number one in Canada for three years until I ended the partnership. And I ended the partnership because they are, they are primarily a job posting site for non profit jobs and they really dragged their feet around, mandating Salary listings in their job postings.
And I've been really vocal online and not vocal and just generally from my values, believe that it's really critical to post salaries when you have jobs open for transparency and equity and all of that. And I couldn't sit there. And partner with this, like the biggest charity job board in Canada who were like not taking a stand, not doing anything about it.
I just felt like it wasn't aligned anymore. So I walked away from that partnership and, you know, we still had the podcast, and it still did well, but it certainly never held onto that, like number one spot for, in a way that it did before.
Eman Ismail: That's a lot. That's a lot. Did you like try to have a conversation with them before? Did you have any like awkward conversations where you,
Cindy Wagman: yeah, and it's hard because like
Eman Ismail: sounds tough.
it's it it is and I mean the people I was talking to weren't necessarily the decision makers about it and so it was tough because I just had, like I was breaking up with them, right, and the person I was working with wasn't responsible for the decisions and we had built a really nice working relationship together and so I really felt like I was breaking up with them and she knew and she didn't have any Ownership of that decision and I said like yeah anyways, so so we parted ways So sticking to your values. It's a good thing to do to make your, yeah, to, to make your agency work, but also to build a business that you're proud of as well.
Cindy Wagman: Yeah, and that when push comes to shove like that's the reputation I want to establish in the sector ofAgain, like doing the things that are especially in the nonprofit and charity sector that we often feel like we can't do because there's not enough money or resources or things like that.
And I'm like, no, we can make these decisions. We can align with our values and not exploit people and, have it. Post salaries and all these kinds of things. So, yeah, at the end of the day, this is the world I want to be living in and creating.
Right. Cindy, are you ready to get into what we came here for?
Cindy Wagman: I'm so ready.
Eman Ismail: Okay, let's do it. Okay.
Stick around. Don't go anywhere. We'll get right back to this episode after this quick break.
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What is the mistake that made you?
So my mistake was that I was chasing the wrong dreams. I had this idea of what success looked like, and it wasn't my idea, but I was still chasing it. Wow. Okay. So tell me, tell me everything.
Cindy Wagman: Yeah, so I call it this like vortex of what happens when we start working for ourselves or like get into business or really any career where we feel like there's a sort of path that everyone follows and we know what success looks like. So I actually. Encounter this early on in my career where like success looked like being the executive director of an organization.
And I started to do the things that I thought would take me there. And then I went to business school and everyone there was like, I want to go into finance or consulting. And actually I, because I was in the nonprofit sector, I felt a little bit, shielded from that pull. But you know, all these, People coming into the space and then they all get sucked into this, like, track of what is most prestigious and, you know, everyone wants, and that's what happened when I started my business is I started off on my own and I was, like I said before, my kids were young and I was happy working part time, but then I started.
Like looking at all these other successful business people and they all had agencies. And then I was like, well, what does success look like? It looks like, having a team and having an office, but not just any office. I wanted the cool office. And so I started building all of these things and then everyone's talking about, you know, your million dollar business.
Eman Ismail: And so I was like, okay, how do I get to that million dollar mark without really thinking like. what's driving me? What am I going to feel great about and what do I want to build? And it took the pandemic for me to really question that. Wow, it's insane to me that the pandemic I feel like was responsible for so much, like so much, you know, negative stuff, but also it was, I think, a moment that just really forced people, we had to stop, it forced us to stop. And in that pause, in that, that quiet, we, It had everyone re evaluating their lives.
What am I doing? Why am I doing it? Is this what I want to be doing?
Cindy Wagman: yeah. And the crazy thing is like, actually I didn't get much of a pause. So I was busier than ever,
Eman Ismail: You were homeschooling, right, as well, at that time?
Cindy Wagman: I mean, my mother is a saint. Yes, my kids were both, I think they were in grade 1 and 3 or something when it started. Anyways, they were young, and I basically, my mom is a very, energetic retiree.
And so every day I drove the boys to her house. I worked in their basement or in like one of the bedrooms upstairs. And she watched my kids every, pretty much every workday, maybe not Fridays, but, it was, A lifesaver and I'm not exaggerating. I don't think I, I don't, I can't imagine not having that support.
My husband's work was busier. So he worked at the time for the Ontario government, which is the province that I live in. And.
Eman Ismail: They were busy at that time.
Cindy Wagman: so busy. They were getting money out to people and funding organizations. And, you know, all of that, he was really busy and the charity sector was panicked and everyone was trying to figure out how do we fundraise?
How do we get through this? What does that look like? And so I was doing webinars out of the wazoo with like all these different people hosting things and the business was busy. And so I was. It was busy. It was really a lot. And, again, it was kind of like, well, is this What I want and so it almost took the like, I mean, burnout to be like, wait a second, why are these things important to me?
And what is it that I want to create in the world? And I always ask myself, and I asked my clients this too, like, Because often we think in binaries like this or that, and I was like, well, what if there's a, I call it your secret answer C, like what, what is there that I can do? That's not A or B, but pulls a little bit from both to create something even better.
And that's what the pandemic and that time really forced me to do is say, okay, can I create a business model that is more aligned with my dreams? And Still achieve some of the other things I wanted to achieve, like pay, like make sure people in the nonprofit sector have opportunities to make good money and be ambitious and all those things.
Eman Ismail: Mm hmm. Okay, so you kind of answered this question as I was thinking it. I was going to ask you, was there something specific that led you to just kind of realize that this, Wasn't maybe what you wanted after all, but you said, you said it was burnout. Do you remember the particular moment? Was there anything specifically that happened?
Cindy Wagman: So yes, one of my staff members had to take a extended leave. and guess who's responsible for their work when they're not there? Me, because it's my business. And I kind of, That sort of like really stretched me. And then, I started thinking about like, how do I replace her? Like I have, I had a really great team and I was like, I don't think I can find someone that good, which is not true, but it felt that way at the time.
Eman Ismail: And it just became, yeah, that kind of was the, the tipping point. And okay. I need to know a little bit more about the cool office because I'd also be the person
Cindy Wagman: so cool. I love my office. So, okay. In downtown Toronto, there, and like, I, it, before I describe it, like, I had this vision and I say this because I think it's important to say these things out loud. Like, I like. To think about how I'm perceived in the world, right? I am ambitious and I like to be successful and look successful.
And so in my mind, I was like, Oh, you know, like the people I've worked with in my past or like the people in my network are going to be able to see that, like, I have this cool office. Like I'm, I've made it like, that's my definition of success. And. So we, in Toronto, there's this building called 401 Richmond, it's the address, 401 Richmond West.
it is a building, it's a really old brick building, and it is full of arts organizations, artist studios, and some small businesses. And it's just like the coolest. So we ended up getting in there, sharing a space with someone who was running her business, but didn't need the size of the office that she had.
And then she left and we took it over. And this was like, it became. Mine, ours, probably in the fall of 2019 and I bought furniture and like all of the things. I was like, this is going to be decked out. It wasn't fancy, like it was all from Ikea, but it looked good and you know, I wanted to be comfortable and we had plans and all, you know, all the things.
So it was a great space. I still, still, I still miss. That like cool factor
Eman Ismail: Okay. Well, I'm looking at it right now on Google and it's absolutely gorgeous. Yeah. But you know, I, I totally understand what you mean around that. Like perception, because I mean, it sounds, it sounds superficial,
Cindy Wagman: But
Eman Ismail: I don't think it is. It's just bus it's, it's, it's, it's business. Like people want to know that they're invested in someone who is doing well, you know?
Cindy Wagman: And honestly like, also, I just want to feel like I'm doing well. Like I want these signals of success just for myself. And like I think these are the things that we don't talk about enough. I think all of us who run businesses, like, a level of our ambition means that we buy into, like, wanting to look successful, wanting to be successful, having the nice things, and I think it, that's just, like, human nature.
Eman Ismail: it is and also, I have spent my fair share of money on a nice really nice co working spaces because I think it's really important, but I think it's really important to If this is something that's important to you, and it is to me, I feel like it's important that I work in somewhere that, like somewhere that fuels my creativity, that fuels my, you know, just passion and helps me focus.
And if I am happy in my environment, my work is better. I am happier. Like it all just, It all just works. And so I think that if that's what you need to spend your money on to, to, to feel good and for your work to be good, then go for it. because I tell you what, there was a difference between the work I was putting out at my, when my ironing board was my standing desk in the middle of the pandemic, to what I was putting out when I had a nice little coworking space with gorgeous plants everywhere.
And like those, those wall.
Cindy Wagman: Mm.
Eman Ismail: I don't know what they're called when the whole wall is a
Cindy Wagman: yeah. Like a living wall?
Eman Ismail: yes, a living wall. Thank you. See, I'm not as fancy as I want to be, but, yeah, it really made a difference. So just to like understand the scale of your success, your agency was making 650, 000 a year in revenue.
Cindy Wagman: Yeah. Yeah.
Eman Ismail: You had five full time staff. You had the cool office in downtown Toronto,
Cindy Wagman: really cool office.
Eman Ismail: and you Really gained popularity in your sector. You were doing really, really well.
Cindy Wagman: Yeah. I'd say so.
Eman Ismail: And what was it that led you to build the agency? I know you said like, it wasn't your version of success, but was it simply that this is what was expected of you?
Like this is. This is the next step for you.
Cindy Wagman: Yeah. Like I thought that that's just like if I wanted to build something bigger. That's what it looked like, right? Like I just didn't feel like I had any other model of
Eman Ismail: Secret option C. You didn't have a secret option C. Yeah.
Cindy Wagman: okay, like that's the next thing. That is, it really feels like a vortex. Like you just get pulled along of like, this is what success looks like.
This is your natural next step. You just keep hiring. You keep building this. Maybe you add some benefits, but I just really. Didn't see any other option or the really the only other option I didn't see where like the people who were on their own, I mean, they're really successful. I think that there are a ton of consultants out there who no one's ever heard of who are making really good money, just doing their own thing.
Eman Ismail: But I was like, no, I want something public. Like that's just what, how I am. And so that's what I thought it looked like. So at the really like height of this agency's success, you decided to shut it down.
Cindy Wagman: Yeah, it was scary. I was like, let's just redo everything. So at that time I started playing with, this is around the time where I was like, okay, well, why don't I see if I can bring on these people and I can teach them how to consult. And so I think these kind of happened simultaneously, but I was just like, I'm done.
And I literally, I gave everyone who was working for me in a fundraising capacity, I gave them the option to like join this new program. One did, one was leaving anyways. And then the other, she ended up taking a break from work because everyone was burnt out at that point. and then I had two people who were doing more like systems and tech stuff.
And I was like, Another thing that happened, which I didn't talk about is like, I kind of was like, Oh, you want to do that? Sure. Go build this part of the business for yourself. I'm like, that's not the business I wanted to do, but they were interested and I gave them free rein. And so I had this like whole revenue stream of stuff I had zero interest in.
like, anyway, so I actually, as part of the termination agreement with the one who really IP she created. Okay. Yeah, which, like, maybe people wouldn't advise, but I was like, she built it, she, that, that was her hard work. Yes, she was employed by me, but like, what do I, I don't, I don't want it or need it.
So, as part of her termination, A, I tried to give her pretty, pretty good treatment. Significant extra severance pay, and all the IP and now she's consulting and, doing really well doing the stuff that she worked on while she was with me. And then someone else was doing systems and I think they worked together for a bit and now both of them, they're both running their own business, doing the things, but that was, yeah, I literally.
Fired everyone. And it was, terrifying and so hard because they were blindsided. Like, they were just like, wait, what just happened? Like, We loved working for you, this was a growing business, and now you're just pulling everything out from under us. And that was really hard, really hard, and I tried my best to navigate it in the most humane, generous way possible.
But, You know, they were still shocked and surprised and, hurt, I imagine. Yeah. And I did it in a way that I, in, I, I tried to set it up that each of them could have success. going forward that was better than the success they would have had with me. And that did happen. Like I know without a doubt that they're making more money, they're in more control, they own their work in a different way.
And so at the time I was really intentional about that, but of course they're, they may or may not see it that way. I think in retrospect they do, but at the moment it still feels like shit.
Eman Ismail: So what do you do at that point? You've just fired your entire team. What do you do next? And how did you feel?
Cindy Wagman: Again, the hard part was really hard and didn't feel good, but also it felt like a relief. I really did feel like a weight had been lifted off my shoulders, and I started building my fractional fundraiser academy. and At the, it did take a little while for me to wind down some clients.
So, I did have like one of my team members, the one who was going to take a break. She's like, I'll just work on this one client. You just pay me for that work. And so it wasn't like a switch that was on and off or off then on, but really it was like, okay, I had enough cash flow. To navigate that and I started Building the fractional fundraiser academy and the way I was able to structure it was that I didn't pay myself any less There's only one time in my business.
I I gave myself a pay cut and that was at the beginning of covid because I thought Literally, I imagined that I would have to move into my parents basement and I had pictures of like tumbleweeds and like the 1920s, like the great depression I've had like I thought that's what we were going into. So I was like, okay, I'm going to pay myself a little less and see what happens.
It ended up, we had, our business grew during that time. And I recovered any amount that I withheld from myself very quickly and ended up. pay myself well. But anyways, I, the way I was able to structure it is I didn't personally take a pay cut through the transition. Obviously my overall top revenue went down significantly.
and then I started building the business back up again and now I'm paying myself more. So,
Eman Ismail: Amazing. Okay, so let's talk about the next part of this. How did this mistake of Following someone else's vision, someone else's dream. How did this mistake make you?
Cindy Wagman: yeah, so it allowed me to find that secret answer C. That is actually one of the sort of core pillars of how I run my business and how I teach other people to think about their businesses, which is we don't have to settle for either or. We get to really decide what's important and take the best of all the worlds.
And it allowed me to find a business model where I, now I'm at the point where I've helped about 60 people, 95 percent of them women, start their own profitable, like six figure businesses. Right? So they're making more than if they were, if I hired them in house, right there and they have more control and all of that.
And I get to pay myself more and I get to work less. So it really became, it really allowed me to open up my thinking to be more abundant and really look for things that. Just not take things for granted. Like, not take for granted the path or opportunity that everyone else takes.
Eman Ismail: we mentioned earlier that your agency was making 650, 000 a year in revenue. And then obviously you shut the agency down. And now your business is making 300, 000 in revenue a year. So revenues.
Cindy Wagman: than that now. Because when I sent that to you, it was a while
Eman Ismail: It was a while ago.
Cindy Wagman: yeah, this year I'm on track, let's say to make about 425? Probably a little bit more than that. Yeah,
Eman Ismail: Amazing. Okay. So the revenue is still amazing, but it's reduced from the revenue you were making as an agency, but the revenue reduced, but your, your income, your take home pay has gone up. Tell us about that.
Cindy Wagman: Yeah. So one of the things that I've also spent time thinking about is like, what am I measuring? Right. It's that idea. Like everyone wants the million dollar business, right? Seven figures, seven figures, seven figures. Well, like, I don't want to make the same as I'm making before and have a million dollar business where I'm just.
I'm more stressed about paying for everyone else, right? So for me, a big thing is like, what am I paying myself, as one of the key metrics of what success looks like for me, not top line revenue, but really my salary and profit. And so. this year, last year I think I paid myself about 180, this year I think it'll be a bit more than 200, but what I love is what that's enabled for me.
So, last summer, my family went on a three week vacation. To, two weeks in Greece as well as, a stop in Iceland and London to visit family. And then this coming March, we're going to Japan for two weeks, which is amazing. And so These are experiences and things that I want in my life and for my family that are a result.
Again, it's not even, the metric isn't just like how much I'm paying myself. It's like, what does that enable for me? It enables me to put money aside for their education, so my kids will have no school debt when they go through university, right? It enables me to, Send them to overnight camp. all of those things are the, are my new measures of success.
Eman Ismail: I love this because I love the idea of you just being able to create a life that you're actually enjoying now, like it's not like, Oh, in, in five years time, I'll have more time to, you know, do what I want to do. And it actually reminds me of a conversation I had over the summer. So I take every July off and, I think I really want to start taking August off as well, actually, just take the whole two months.
but for now it's just July. just before I kind of stopped for my summer holiday, I had a call with someone and they wanted to work with me. And I know that I'm not available in July, and so I, So, you know, my next availability is, is August and that didn't work for them. And it was a really big project as well as five, five figure project.
And, but this was like my, this is my non negotiable because I just feel like there are so many cons. When it comes to having your own business like that, we have to create our pros. And this is, this is one of them for me and it's not, it's a non negotiable. And so afterwards, anyway, she, they were supposed to get back in touch with me.
They didn't. And so I did my normal follow up, but just checking in, do you know, are you still interested to work with me? And then they replied back to the email, but they changed the subject line, that they were replying to. So like intentionally change the subject line to something like, Like just some advice or something like that.
And then went on to say that basically my availability was not like suitable. It was just like the, the availability thing was not working out and I should basically make myself more available because they've gone with someone else.
Cindy Wagman: No, F off. Like,
Eman Ismail: Oh, that's like totally cool with me. And actually, if you want to work with me, you probably need to get in touch a couple of months before you want to work with me because I don't do urgent work.
That's another thing. I will not do urgent projects. I won't do it. I will not add on top of all the stress of just life. I'm not gonna add urgent projects onto my like, onto my plate as well. And so this was that. It was an urgent project and it was at a time that I just, I wasn't available and I was like, No, I'm not.
It's not. I'm not.
Cindy Wagman: and those are the clients who continue to push boundaries, right? Like those are the ones who are going to be like, and I need this sooner, or I want another round of edits when we've already maxed out our edits. Like those are the clients that. There's a saying, like, when someone shows you who they are, believe them, like, they're not the clients we want to work with because they don't respect us for our expertise.
And as business owners, this is humans, right? If you can't understand that there is a human behind this business, who has a life and family and other obligations, then I don't want you as a client.
Eman Ismail: well, and like, I love so much working with clients who just get it. Like in the past week, I've had two conversations, one just before I got on this call with you and the other one just a couple of days ago where I was like, okay, so let's talk about booking in the project. I'm on holiday next week.
Cause my kids are on holiday. They're at home with me. So. Out of office next week. And then one of the clients said, Oh, okay. Yeah, I'm actually out of office the next week for my kid's school holiday. So I was like, great. Those two weeks are out for both of us.
Cindy Wagman: Yeah.
Eman Ismail: And it's just so great to have clients who, who understand, who get it, who are, who you're just like aligned, you're both aligned and you just, you both, everyone's running, you know, successful businesses.
But the business isn't like the end goal. Life is the end goal.
Cindy Wagman: Yeah. Exactly. And that means different things to everyone, but like, we're each entitled to define that for ourselves. And who would, who's anyone to judge what's important to me
Eman Ismail: I love that so much. I love it so much because the thing is as well, I think the reason I brought this up was because I could make a whole lot more money if I worked the I think it's like four months across the year that I don't actually work. I can make a whole lot more money, but like, I don't want to, I'd rather find a way to make more money still taking that time off. Where's my secret option C? I love that by the way.
Cindy Wagman: Thanks.actually someone helped me come up with that. Any Francesca. Is that her last name? Anyways, yeah, cause I was like, so the funny thing, and this is like a total tangent, but, so, my degree from university is in women's studies, and so much of that is about like, non binary, like there's, we don't have to fit into the defined A or B, male, female, thinking.
And this was like 25 years ago, right? And so when I wrote my thesis on feminist fundraising, it was really about that. Like we, in the nonprofit sector and in fundraising, we think about the haves and the have nots. And it's again, not that binary. And when I went to do my MBA, I picked a program that, is founded on this idea of integrative thinking, which is really when I started to better understand this, like, you know, what I now call secret option C, which is like, we have different mental models of like option A and option B and how do you take the best parts of both and turn it into something better.
So this has been a long time percolating in my mind and in how I do things, but just because I understood it doesn't mean I practiced it. And that's really more recent.
Eman Ismail: I love that. There's also another thing as well. You used to work five and a half days a week at the agency and now are you still working three and a half days?
Cindy Wagman: So it's a little different this fall because I decided to update my curriculum and overhaul all of our systems at the same time and go into a big launch adding a summit. So this fall I'm working more like full time ish, But what that looks like is very different than most people's full time. So for example, I pretty much end every day by four o'clock because I take my kids to soccer or Yeah, usually the yeah, there's a
Eman Ismail: in that, I'm in that stage of life. Yeah. I'm the taxi driver for a lot of, yeah, I'm the taxi driver for a lot of,activities. No one prepared me for the stage of parenthood, by the way. I was.
Cindy Wagman: never thought I would be a soccer mom. I spend so much time at that pitch. It's ridiculous. and like, I don't love it, but anyways, I do it for my kids. I always say like when they complain about going, I'm like, I'm not doing this for me. So, yeah, but it's a
Eman Ismail: already paid the bell, so you are going, have a good time.
Cindy Wagman: Or like, you want to stay home?
Great. I like, let's quit the team. Because honestly, I'm not taxi driving you for like, this is not my idea of fun. But they love it. And so I leave work at four ish. Sometimes I'll bring my computer and like respond to emails from soccer. But. It just means my day is weird. I also am really trying to prioritize my own fitness and strength training, which is another conversation I'm sure we could have because I'm at a time in my life where bone density is a concern and other things.
So making time in the mornings for that. So my, my, I am working about full time, I think come March, I'll be able to drop that back down to three and a half days a week. But, I'm okay with that seasonality of like, I'm really committed to making sure that as my program, especially the Fractional Fundraiser Academy, which is what I'm working on now, like as it grows, I want to be able to Maintain that.
So updating all of our systems was huge. And, but it gives me a much better picture of like all my students, how engaged are they? Are they reaching the milestones? Like all of those kinds of things, game changer. I feel so confident that I can like have a sense of how people are doing just by looking at my air table.
Eman Ismail: Okay. Wait, are you by any chance, is, are we up by any chance talking about rave results? A pro, okay. There's a program that everyone's been going on about recently. it's meant to be really good. That does exactly that. Oh no. Are you talking about, systems over stress?
Cindy Wagman: Yeah.
Eman Ismail: Systems over stress. Yes. so I've heard so much about this program as well.
I've heard so much about it.
Cindy Wagman: Changed my business. Changed my business. I feel, so first of all, like the automations, which I fricking love. And so I, I did systems over stress and then I actually am working with Ashley's team more because I, Love designing a customer experience that's like next level. And so I went well beyond what they teach in the program in terms of like monitoring results, checking with people.
Like I have, it's like next level, but it gives me a huge. sense, like peace of mind and confidence that I can grow the program and still give people like that personal touch.
Eman Ismail: Mm hmm.
Cindy Wagman: So that's been game changing for me. And the curriculum was another huge project.
Eman Ismail: Okay. So this sounds amazing. but like maybe this is a question. I just need to ask Ashley because my thing is I'm an Asana girly. I love Asana. I don't ever want to leave Asana and the idea of adding yet another system to my plate is just like. Yeah. It just feels like a lot. But could it be that you use this Airtable stuff tracking for Just see like your courses, your programs.
It doesn't have to like run your entire business.
Cindy Wagman: Correct. So, okay. I still use Asana for project management. I've tried Airtable for project management, but I just it doesn't do what I needed to do. But what I'm using Airtable for is, my group program, everything. So I track like literally, cause even my onboarding for the group program is like, they sign up through Thrivecart.
Then they get, go to Dibsado to sign a contract. Then they get the login information for ExperienceFight, which is my LMS. And. Then, and there's the onboarding form. And so all of these things, I literally can look in Airtable and see who's done what, and not just that, if they haven't filled, if they haven't signed into the LMS, like the online learning platform, it sends them a nudge every, like, however many days I said, it may be every three days.
It's like, you haven't signed into this, like you joined the program, but you haven't even signed into the online portal. Do that, or you haven't signed the contract. You can't move forward unless you do that. So it basically, I can automate follow up if I have like a, when they get their first client, I have a form for them to fill out.
if they don't fill it out, they pick a date by when they want to have their first client in their onboarding form, or if they don't fill in their onboarding form, they get reminded of that too. But then. Once it hits the date that they picked for their goal for their first client, if they haven't filled in the first client form, it'll be like, Hey, we've reached this date.
You haven't filled in the form. Like, how's it going? How can I help? Or if you've got your client fill in the form. So I get to like really follow up with people at various milestones with Literally without doing anything. And when I have office hours, I take attendance in air table. So I can see who hasn't been in office hours in two months.
And I can be like, I haven't seen you in a while. Um, it's next level.
Eman Ismail: Why is that so simple, but so genius? Because I'm like, I do the same mentally, like I'm looking for names. I'm looking for like, who have I not seen for a while? Oh, I've not seen them for But to actually like, Document it, have the data, that is genius. I'm biting my, I was like biting my finger as you were talking, that's like my nervous little tick thing because I know I need this program at some point.
And I'm looking at the
Cindy Wagman: so she's.
Eman Ismail: okay let me just, let me just budget for that at some point.
Cindy Wagman: Honestly, you can also just hire them to do it for you. because I really like to know how things work and design them to like what I envisioned in my head. I did the program, but then I hired them to do like a build with you. So we actually have like regular calls where we build in real time, the air table stuff, because I just, it is next level, like the way I set things up is Probably more complicated than it needs to be, but now it's just like done.
And I don't have to think about it. Honestly, I've told Ashley this, I said, like, I feel like you've changed my life and my business. I feel so much more confident going into my next launch. Knowing that I'm, that people aren't going to fall through the cracks. And as I said, like right off the, like earlier, when we were talking about group programs, that's so important for me, it's so important for me to feel like people are seeing, I can track their progress and I can, you know, Step in to make sure that they're getting the support they need and it felt overwhelming. And I was literally like tracking things manually ahead in my notebooks like people's names and be like, okay What like have they done this have they done that. And then I wouldn't see people in office hours but because they don't show up in office hours, I wouldn't notice that they weren't in office hours because I was like, Oh, I forget you're even in the program.
I never want that to happen. And I want to double, triple, quadruple the program. And so, I needed that system to feel really confident going into the next year.
Eman Ismail: Okay, well, I'm sold. So,
Cindy Wagman: You can tell Ashley, I sent you.
Eman Ismail: Yeah, I'll let her know. I've been, I listened to Ashley's Get Paid Podcast episode, which was fascinating. Was it Get Paid Podcast? It was,
Cindy Wagman: was on Claire's. Yeah.
Eman Ismail: it was such a great episode. so yeah, I've been fascinated for a while.
Okay, so Cindy, what do you want people listening to learn from your mistake?
Cindy Wagman: Yeah. That, like, you get to choose. We get to be in control and define what success looks like for us. And just, like, pause and don't get sucked into that vortex. And, of course, I'd be remiss if I didn't say, Find your secret answer C. Yeah.
Eman Ismail: I love that so much. And this whole conversation has reminded me of, a conversation I had with Emily Thompson from Being Boss. and she spoke about creating, The business that you want, but also allowing your business to like, give you perks, like, like the company perks that you'd get working at any other company, like create your own perks that your own company gives you.
And so when you were talking about you being able to take time off, you taking holidays with your kids, you being able to finish early, you being able to like have seasons where you're working more or working less, these are all perks that you've created for yourself as. someone who's working for yourself and I think it's so important that we design our own company perks.
Like my open soul just a couple months ago, actually because of my, I was gonna say my horrible like gym contract that when you like cancel it, it still goes on for another two months. I was so annoyed. Yeah, I canceled it and they're like, okay, great. You basically have given us like your two month notice, so we'll cancel it in November.
What?
Cindy Wagman: Oh, that feels gross.
Eman Ismail: so, so, so gross. but anyway, so I cancelled my gym subscription, but it's actually still running. that was a company perk for me. lunch is a company perk for me sometimes. things like, obviously the flexibility, that kind of thing. And then also a couple of other, like.
just more personal life things that my company is able to do for me that I'm like, yeah.
Cindy Wagman: We get to be the boss we want, right? Like we think of what kind of workplace culture we want, like we can create it. And so, yeah, we get the perks, we get. You know, I want, I have a computer that I feel really good about. I have like one of the things I bought. Yeah. Like I get to create the environment I work in.
I get to set my hours, all of those things, but no one is going to do it except us. And we have to take control over that and know that it's within our purview. Like that is, No one's going to do it. We are going to get sucked in to the like overwork, especially because I feel like most people who run their own businesses are.
You know workaholics we we want to do the things and we feel good when we're working and so we have to create the perks for ourselves because otherwise I feel like we will just get sucked into working all the time and putting everyone else first.
Eman Ismail: Yeah, a hundred percent. Thank you so much for being here, Cindy. It's been so great chatting to you. Tell us where people can find you if they want to stay connected.
Cindy Wagman: Yeah, so cindywagman. com is my main website and Linkedin is my social media platform of choice. Just Cindy Wagman on Linkedin.
Eman Ismail: Great. And we'll put those in the show notes so everyone can find it easily. Thank you so much. It's been great having you.
Cindy Wagman: It's my pleasure. Thanks for having me.
Eman Ismail: I loved speaking to Cindy because it made me think about what really matters to me. As we're wrapping up 2024 and I'm getting ready to record my annual year in review, I'm thinking a lot about what I've achieved, and I guess what I haven't achieved this year for me, success is being able to take as much time off as I want so that I can build a business that really works around my life instead of building a life that works around my business.
For me, success means having more stability and security, which means yes, having more money. That's more revenue, more profit, and more take home pay too. It's being able to build a business that makes money without me being the beat and heart of it. Because I don't want my business to be my whole life. I want my business to be able to work and to make money, even when I'm not there.
I guess that's why I decided to go down the micro agency route in the end. That version of success didn't suit me back when I was a mama of one, but now, as a soon to be mama of three, it does. And I reserve the right, may I just say, to change my definition of success at any time. As do you. I think the most important thing is to actually take the time to define it.
To take the time to figure out what it is you want. Don't wait till a huge life event like a pandemic or a new baby forces you to rethink everything. If you're interested in finding out how I'm building my microagency, go listen to my solo episode, episode 28, Building My Email Microagency, so you can get all the behind the scenes info on what it's been like and what I'm working on.
And watch this space because I'll be dropping my 2024 year in review very soon.
I just launched my new, fun, super valuable, super free email quiz. It's called What's Your Perfect Newsletter Style? And surprise, surprise, it helps you discover your ideal newsletter format based on your personality, preferences, and goals. So if you're someone who's struggling to write your newsletter, to publish it consistently, to make money through your emails, to really build a relationship with your subscribers, this quiz is going to help you.
It exists to help make your email marketing easier, faster, and more fun. So you can focus on what works and what actually grows your business. You can take the quiz right now at emancopyco. com slash quiz. That link is also in the show notes. If you'd prefer to just click.